£8500 for a telecaster? REALLY?

GoldenEraGuitars

Sporky said:

I think that's all fair. How likely is it that one person will be really, really good at:

Timber selection
Design
Machining (hand, pin router, CNC, whatever) 
Finishing
Winding pickups
Wiring
Fretting
Setting up

Apart from WezV, that is.

We don't expect builders to make their own tuners or bridges. Most don't make their own pickups - and that's fine. And anyone who was good at all of those would surely charge a lot more than £8500. 

Just imagine if there was a full time luthier on this forum who did all of this

Sporky

I suspect we have a disproportionate number of such luthier-unicorns. 

JayGee

Sporky said:

I think that's all fair. How likely is it that one person will be really, really good at:

Timber selection
Design
Machining (hand, pin router, CNC, whatever) 
Finishing
Winding pickups
Wiring
Fretting
Setting up

Apart from WezV, that is.

We don't expect builders to make their own tuners or bridges. Most don't make their own pickups - and that's fine. And anyone who was good at all of those would surely charge a lot more than £8500. 

Which is where specialisation and resulting economy of scale for the specialists kick in. Which you’d normally expect to see used to lower the cost of an item…

But then I think the idea that someone in the market for an £8.5K Telecaster is paying that for the guitar rather than the whole boutique presentation, red carpet treatment from the vendor, real or imagined closer association with the brand, and associated bragging rights (and that they don’t know that) is naive. See also Rolex watches, Louis Vuitton luggage, and Gucci, well, Gucci anything really…

WezV

Sporky said:

I think that's all fair. How likely is it that one person will be really, really good at:

Timber selection
Design
Machining (hand, pin router, CNC, whatever) 
Finishing
Winding pickups
Wiring
Fretting
Setting up

Apart from WezV, that is.

We don't expect builders to make their own tuners or bridges. Most don't make their own pickups - and that's fine. And anyone who was good at all of those would surely charge a lot more than £8500. 

I wish i could charge £8.5k a guitar.  I might be able to do it full time if I could

thebreeze

SlopeSoarer said:

The reason they are so expensive is because as part of the service you can take them with you at the end...





Plenty of AI mistakes in both pics! 

You wouldn’t be allowed in with a bridge like that.

Sporky

WezV said:

I wish i could charge £8.5k a guitar.  I might be able to do it full time if I could

Argh - I've just noticed that I accidentally said you weren't good at all of those, which isn't at all what I'd intended - sorry. 

WezV

Sporky said:

WezV said:

I wish i could charge £8.5k a guitar.  I might be able to do it full time if I could

Argh - I've just noticed that I accidentally said you weren't good at all of those, which isn't at all what I'd intended - sorry. 

i didn't take it that way, and I certainly have my weaknesses within that list

guitars4you

CountryDave said:

guitars4you said:

Sporky said:

guitars4you said:

Going to try and keep this as simple as possible - I'm going to quickly compare the price of this Masterbuilt model v a similar grade of UK luthier built guitar, on more of a like v like basis

When you say "UK luthier built", do you mean that the luthier actually built it - made the neck and the body - or that the UK luthier picked a neck and body off a production line?

Because there's a difference between "made it from bits of wood and components by one person who's good at every stage", and "assembled a body and neck that other people made".

Valid points and both taken and I suppose both - Often been a point of contention within such luthiers (and to customers) in that do they build from 'raw woods' etc or buy in and assemble accordingly - I'm not saying one is better than the other, when you play the end result, but I do believe the process should be listed within the spec, accordingly - But for comparison to the Fender model, both of your 'format's  above' follow a similar 'small workshop/one man business' path, with associated costs, with their route to market v that of Fender 

There are valid point made every time this subject arises.
However, a couple of thoughts to throw some petrol on the bonfire.

With the ‘bought in’ body and neck, someone, somewhere has had to either press ‘go’ on the CNC machine, or pin router. The end builder has to pay for these parts in the same way they pay for hardware. This all ultimately adds to the cost.

For a second, imagine that your builder has the greatest expertise in turning pre-cut bodies and necks into the perfect guitar. They also realise that the length of time it takes them to do the initial woodwork isn’t cost effective to ultimately give them the blank canvas they can get from a reputable woodworking partner. Also for this example, the bodies and necks they buy are built to their exacting specs and bought on the proviso they can return the ones that they don’t feel are within their tolerances for either weight, grain, resonance, etc.

This builder can do the woodwork to the same standards, but chooses to put their time into what they consider the more important part of the build.

Ultimately the question then comes down to does a body blank built by Mr or Mrs X carry more value than a body blank built by Mr or Mrs Y.

It may also be that a level of consistency can not be achieved by the sole builder in line with their woodworking partner.  They also may incur higher costs for each body as some blanks may need rejecting and become fuel for their log burner.

I’m running and hiding already.

See where you are coming from Dave - Always been a bit of debate about the likes of SVL Guitars - And I'm not so sure (please correct me if wrong) that Xotic  actually produce their own wood work in house - Kramer USA never did back in their hay days of the 80's  - But as you say, if you can control the whole spec and quality then is it an issue ? - Not really, but please be honest about such a process

Then a question of cost  - Both in terms of buying timber + relevant storage pus the CNC machine - Would be interesting to find out how many small companies who make less than say 100/200/400 guitars a year who use a CNC for wood work - Or indeed any builders making over 400 guitars a year who still don't want a CNC 

Also if you buy more wood in order to make 100-200 necks a year, or more, how much wastage of raw wood do you get as not all raw wood will meet your criteria 

Ref the comment about For a second, imagine that your builder has the greatest expertise in turning pre-cut bodies and necks into the perfect guitar - I often use the following as a topic of thought/conversation - I can go to Sainsbury's and buy all the relevant ingredients to make  a good shepherds pie - Any of our famous TV Chef's can do likewise - So we all utilise identical ingredients - So who will make the best shepherds pie ? - On that basis we can all buy a Warmouth body and neck or indeed a body + neck from @GoldenEraGuitars - But I bet the appropriate skilled luthiers/workshops on here can put it together better than I can - Even though it is just a  bolt on neck - I would assume/hope that the final playability, set-up will be better when they've finished with it, then my own DIY job 

Sporky

That's true, I think, about the finished quality, but then what if I bought a neck, body, and other bits, sent them off to a well-regarded finisher, did the wiring (I'm good at that bit), and then took it to Mr Feline to fret and set up?

That'd cost a lot less than £8500, and I'd warrant it'd be better. 

Though as others have said, Fender Masterbuilt is not an exercise in value-for-money. 

nacnudnai

snowblind said:

Philly_Q said:

Some of those things might actually be really cheap at £8,500.  But I'd expect at least two tubs of Lurpak for that kind of money.

I'd go for two packs of Tesco Butterpak plus an Aldi 100W head plus 4x12.

Is the 100W head + 4x12 on the middle aisle? I hope they've still got them when I'm there next... 

guitars4you

crunchman said:

guitars4you said:

I'm kind of baffled by a lot of the comments above and in particular claims that it is only 2 pieces of wood screwed together

Going to try and keep this as simple as possible - I'm going to quickly compare the price of this Masterbuilt model v a similar grade of UK luthier built guitar, on more of a like v like basis

That guitar, hi-lighted in the initial posting, is £8500 and has a built in vat level of £1417 - So the cost of the guitar is £7083 - Still expensive I know - But now take away the dealers margin and that guitar now costs around £5300 - I don't have the exact figures to hand but suspect around £300 to cover shipping from the USA and appropriate import duty and that guitar now costs £5000 - Of course we don't know the level of profit built into that figure of £5000 that Fender charge but we all know it will be considerably higher than the level of profit applied to the price from our UK luthier

I'm not saying the UK luthier built guitar is better, same, or worse, but think it is fair to say, that most of us would accept the actual grade of materials, build quality, tonal character and playability  to be not to far away from each other - But the UK luthier probably is not charging vat (some will some won't) - they certainly are not paying import duty and global shipping - Certainly not paying a dealer to handle the sale - And even if they are charging vat, they are paying it on a value that is probably around 50/60 % lower so a considerable saving of vat  

I'm guessing that £2500 - £3000 is the price charged for many/most quality UK Luthier built model - So yes it is still cheaper than a like for like basis of the £5000 charged by Fender - But far closer than maybe we initially look at it 

Now we know you can't get such a Fender for £5000 - As the route to market does mean that sadly is a £8500 guitar - But equally if the UK Luthier grow their business and adapted a similar process then their £2500/3000 would suddenly be around £4000/4800

Fender have economies of scale that the small UK builder won't have though.

They will cut multiple bodies on a CNC machine at at time.  The small guy is probably routing them from a template.

They will buy wood in bulk and cut out the middle man.

They will buy other components in bulk.  E.g. they will probably order pots form CTS 20,000 at a time and get a much better price than the small guy can get from somewhere like RS.

They manufacture their own pickups, so they cut out the profit that the pickup winder makes.

Those elements of large scale mass production still apply to their Custom Shop guitars.  The prices of all the Custom Shop guitars are too high for what goes into them.

Until we vote with our wallets though, and buy other brands, they will keep gouging us.

Don't disagree with most of your comments - I kind of deliberately stayed away from such points on my posts above, as I was trying to consider more of a like for like costs 

One person screwing on 4 bolts at Fender USA will cost more than either our esteemed UK luthier doing it them self, or indeed a UK luthier employing a 4 bolt neck screwer - Then you have all the 'corporate issues' in that many at Fender USA HQ's don't actually add anything to the whole build process as such - They add to the corporate 'brand' process in a different way - But such corporate overheads have to be paid by employing more 4 bolt neck screwers in order to produce more guitars - Plus of course add such corporate costs in to the final cost of the finished product 

As you say 'They will buy wood in bulk and cut out the middle man' - But now add wages to the team that have to handle all the relevant storage/acclimatization - The aircon/heating etc in order to process the above - Then huge floor space to store such wood - This floor space alone will be larger than many other aspects of the whole production process - So hell of an expensive 'store room' space, that is not 'actually part of the production line as such, put all needs to be brought into play when we look at the final costs

I'm not saying 4K plus or 8K is not expensive for a CS or MB - But a big plus for our highly skilled luthiers is that they don't have to worry about such costs and operations - Of course the corporation has to make a profit and they will aim to maximise that 

Slightly off topic - I recall a chat with PRS a number of years ago, about guitar building - He said he stopped been a guitar builder many many years ago - He had to become a business man - That doesn't mean he doesn't get involved in many aspects of design, ideas, many new products, etc - But he also has to become a Steve Jobs, front of house presenter/business man/company figure head etc - So what he started off doing and enjoying is no longer possible - There was talk a number of years ago about Tom Anderson going back to a small company that was basically him and 1 or 2 others - He no longer became  a guitar builder - But equally they have had to go through many sleepless nights in order to build a company, raise finances, handle recruitment, secure premises and keep it all smooth and plain sailing 

In short, if any of our highly regarded luthiers decided to move from a small workshop, making fine guitars, one at a time, and charging £2500 to £4000 - Then now make/sell 500 to 1000 guitars in a year, via a dedicated team, then you won't see price tickets of £2500 to £4000 - That is 100% a fact, as the figures just won't stack up

guitars4you

Sporky said:

That's true, I think, about the finished quality, but then what if I bought a neck, body, and other bits, sent them off to a well-regarded finisher, did the wiring (I'm good at that bit), and then took it to Mr Feline to fret and set up?

That'd cost a lot less than £8500, and I'd warrant it'd be better. 

Though as others have said, Fender Masterbuilt is not an exercise in value-for-money. 

I would tend to agree with you, especially if we looked at the performance criteria of the guitar itself, so ignore any branding - Then I'm sure it would easily stand up against the MB Tele on any A v B test   - The big negative of course would be re-sale value - But equally if it is that good, then no need to sell it - I know the MB will loose money from its new price today to its used price next week - But based on the prices over the last 10 years , then apply same/similar to the next 10 years, then the chances are that the used MB value will be in excess of £8500 - Don't think we could say the same for your/mine Customcaster

bacchanalian

Gassing hard for a masterbuilt now!

mo6020

bacchanalian said:

Gassing hard for a masterbuilt now!

They're totally worth the money 

KevS

If you have to take the neck off to adjust the relief and if it's got a 7.25 radius board,,I'm not interested..

For the reasons below I am not interested..

I prefer what I already have because they evolved to fit me and my needs..
Mine don't have boasting rights but I prognosticate via Nostradamus I will prefer my own Teles..
Well it's logical guesswork because of my preferences.. 

Both my Teles have became my Teles by changing the bits that over time didn't work for me..A Top Hat switch tip is more tactile than a Pill Box..I bought ones with the biggest frets I could get and a neck I liked..I like pickups that can be dialled in to match each other,not mud in the neck and ice pick in the bridge..I like flat poles in the bridge it seems..The set I prefer are Alnico 3 and not wound hot..
I like the strings to be evenly spaced,but a 3 saddle bridge..Any Fender saddles with the threads on I have owned don't have even spacing ability..The saddles I do like are around a tenner,they are not compensated,but seem to intonate better than the compensated saddles I have tried,but still not perfect..I prefer the 3 saddle sound,also these have u shaped string slots and are chunky affairs...The Pickups under £200..Top hat switch..I haven't checked in a while..I like my Teles a touch under 8 Lbs..If I could buy them off the shelf how I liked them for a small upcharge,I probably would.. Most importantly,I am likely to prefer my Tele over most to play and use,no matter what the price..Same with my Strats and Les Pauls as they have evolved to fit my needs and were bought for their feel..Although that isn't set in stone....Although my heaviest LP could be a bit lighter..It is 10 lbs basically..

These £8,500 Teles have the older, for me worse options in the name of tradition and fake wear..
Purism meets fake authenticity,if you feel different about that,it's fine,it's just not for me,,I respect your choice..
I'm sure that sadly they will have collectors value,my guitars are for playing..
Relics are not for me,that seems to happen with time and use..
If they are for others,again their taste and choice,,at an upcharge..

The only thing that bothers me is if this will cause Fender to raise the prices on their Standard product,..
£1500 Epiphones are a thing now..When new prices go up,second hand prices go up etc..
Fender like Gibson partly rely on their History and will use it to justify just about anything..
Like selling sandpaper and a hammer as an Instant Mojo Kit..

I know,the original 50's prices,the present price of originals..I'm sure Fender make plenty of profit on their Professional Series..
No need to defend them,they have a marketing / bullshitting department to do that already..

crunchman

guitars4you said:

....- But based on the prices over the last 10 years , then apply same/similar to the next 10 years, then the chances are that the used MB value will be in excess of £8500 

I'm not sure that will continue to hold.  There is a very limited market for guitars at that price, and there are more and more "master built" instruments every year.  The supply of second hand ones will continue to grow, while the demand will probably stay about the same.

The other thing that will have an effect is the price of genuine old ones.  There will probably be more of them coming onto the market as the baby boomers who bought them 40 or 50 years ago pop their clogs.  If they come down in price, people will be more inclined to go for one of those.  That might also reduce demand for the modern Custom Shop guitars.

guitars4you

crunchman said:

guitars4you said:

....- But based on the prices over the last 10 years , then apply same/similar to the next 10 years, then the chances are that the used MB value will be in excess of £8500 

I'm not sure that will continue to hold.  There is a very limited market for guitars at that price, and there are more and more "master built" instruments every year.  The supply of second hand ones will continue to grow, while the demand will probably stay about the same.

The other thing that will have an effect is the price of genuine old ones.  There will probably be more of them coming onto the market as the baby boomers who bought them 40 or 50 years ago pop their clogs.  If they come down in price, people will be more inclined to go for one of those.  That might also reduce demand for the modern Custom Shop guitars.

Valid thought patterns above  - The interesting thing with CS is that it has now been going for over 30 years - They make around 10K a year and that as a 'stand alone' company makes them bigger than PRS USA Core series - But Fender never thought that the 'craze' would ever last this long - Not sure how many MB's are built each year - I'm guessing around 1K - maybe more - There was a rumour that each builder made around 250-300 each in a year

Equally I've had many conversations, both with customers and 'friends' within the trade about the whole 'supply' of used guitars - Expecting a glut of far to many - Yet in reality it hasn't become a genuine problem - Yet

 In truth do we need to make any more new guitars - I've been expecting such issues for many many years yet it hasn't happened and that is despite the so called lack of new players and the lack of 'main stream' guitar hero's to influence the next breed of players - A different story I suppose to the OP's original post 

Not so sure about the vintage market - One thing for sure is that they can't all stay original for ever and be 'saleable' with worn out components which is effectively like selling a guitar with a known fault - Many old guitars, as they stand in some form of original, aren't actually great players - I've played more 'duff' old pre 65 Fenders than good - To play and as a tool of the trade I'd say most CS/MB models outperform the playability of an original old 'un - Different story if you compare CS/MB to a restored player grade example - As I mentioned earlier, the whole 'all original' vintage market scares me as so many fraudulent examples out there 

Sporky

I use them as swizzlesticks, so I'm constantly running out. And breaking glasses. 

guitarjack66

guitars4you said:

Now let's move on to the USA and a guy to screw in 4 bolts - USA ave wage is around $77K a year - 6400 per month or 1480 per week - Need to add/include holiday pay, private health care 

But there is one big difference between the UK 'bolt screwer' working for a small luthier and the USA 'bolt screwer' working for Fender - In essence all but a few Fender Guitars contain a bolt on neck - So you have to employ  a bunch of 'bolt screwers' - But equally at Fender there are hundreds of staff that earn a wage but don't screw on the neck - Be it those that pack each guitar - Those that look after 'drying' the wood - The painter - The pick up winder -  The final QC - Those that look after the maintenance of the CNC and other machines - Then add to that all the office staff, be it running production schedules, ordering all the 'ingredients'  marketing, sales, after service inc spare parts and warranty claims etc - Then of course a host of directors and members of the board  - So that bolt screwer has to 'carry' a lot of additional staff

Then we need to add the huge increase of space required to run such a manufacturing process - From wood storage - Parts, cases, final qc, shipping and packing, plus off course all the ' glass towers' for the board/directors - Car park for staff, visitors and board etc etc etc etc

So whilst we can look very easily at the cost to employ a bolt screwer in the UK is around £35K - But working for a small luthier, the costs of the 'garden shed' or small lock up, is minuscule in comparison to the cost of employing 100's of USA bolt screwers - And each of these USA bolt screwers has to have built into his wage the costs associated as above in order to run the global empire called Fender  - So yes it is only a case of screwing in 4 bolts - But that is only a fraction of the total costs of production

So yes Fender may well be very clever and knowing what they can charge and inflate accordingly - But USA production costs are not cheap either

In the guitar industry,the larger companies at least,couldn't one person do more than one job if the need arose? Many factory workers will do a number of roles to cover for sickness/holidays etc and I imagine this applies to guitars too?

guitars4you

guitarjack66 said:

guitars4you said:

Now let's move on to the USA and a guy to screw in 4 bolts - USA ave wage is around $77K a year - 6400 per month or 1480 per week - Need to add/include holiday pay, private health care 

But there is one big difference between the UK 'bolt screwer' working for a small luthier and the USA 'bolt screwer' working for Fender - In essence all but a few Fender Guitars contain a bolt on neck - So you have to employ  a bunch of 'bolt screwers' - But equally at Fender there are hundreds of staff that earn a wage but don't screw on the neck - Be it those that pack each guitar - Those that look after 'drying' the wood - The painter - The pick up winder -  The final QC - Those that look after the maintenance of the CNC and other machines - Then add to that all the office staff, be it running production schedules, ordering all the 'ingredients'  marketing, sales, after service inc spare parts and warranty claims etc - Then of course a host of directors and members of the board  - So that bolt screwer has to 'carry' a lot of additional staff

Then we need to add the huge increase of space required to run such a manufacturing process - From wood storage - Parts, cases, final qc, shipping and packing, plus off course all the ' glass towers' for the board/directors - Car park for staff, visitors and board etc etc etc etc

So whilst we can look very easily at the cost to employ a bolt screwer in the UK is around £35K - But working for a small luthier, the costs of the 'garden shed' or small lock up, is minuscule in comparison to the cost of employing 100's of USA bolt screwers - And each of these USA bolt screwers has to have built into his wage the costs associated as above in order to run the global empire called Fender  - So yes it is only a case of screwing in 4 bolts - But that is only a fraction of the total costs of production

So yes Fender may well be very clever and knowing what they can charge and inflate accordingly - But USA production costs are not cheap either

In the guitar industry,the larger companies at least,couldn't one person do more than one job if the need arose? Many factory workers will do a number of roles to cover for sickness/holidays etc and I imagine this applies to guitars too?

I was being a touch sarky as earlier on in this discussion it was mentiuoned that all Fender are doing is screwing on a neck, as per any UK luthier would - So why pay more for the same guitar  - As though nothing else was involved in reaching the selling price

But you are right in that in most modern 'USA' factories (don't know about the far east) that many of this eon the production line will probably specialist in one or two areas - Watch various video clips of factory tours and it is often discussed - I've been round the PRS USA factory 3 times and have asked such questions - Some do stay on one part of the build - Some will be able to work 2/3 parts of the build - Think it was Tom Anderson who mentioned that they rotate some parts of the 'line' to stop it becoming tedious - Think it was to do with 'scraping' the binding to remove any fleks of paint - But equally I dare say in a smaller company like Tom Anderson, then it is good practice to have a few members of staff capable of doing more than just fitting machine heads