Tool's cover of 'No Quarter' ...

PolarityMan

monquixote said:

PolarityMan said:

I didn't mention a click and as Drew points out Tool don't use one. Led Zep were sloppy as all fuck even on a good day though. 

It's not about if he uses a click or not it's more about the natural assumption of 99% of modern rock drummers that the pulse of the music should be defined on the click of a metronome and that can be explicit or just internalised into their playing. 

A lot of the drummers from that 60's era come from a jazz background where the pulse isn't so regimented. Everything Bonham plays tends to be slightly swung and he moves around the beat as he plays. I don't think Bonham can be called "sloppy" as I think everything he does is intended and there for a reason. Bill Ward is the same. Reading Iommi's book he says hardly any modern drummers can play with Sabbath because they don't get it. 

Also regarding the track and relative sloppyness. It's going to have been recorded in a couple of takes with very few edits and overdubs probably the day or day after it was written. It's about vibe rather than perfection. I expect if modern bands had to record the way 60's bands did then they would sound similarly sloppy.

I was reading about a similar thing in the world of classical recently where they tend to Pro Tools the shit out of orchestras removing all the character and the ebb and flow of the conductors timing and piecing together flawless takes. I was interested to know it's much the same debate as in the world of rock music.

None of this changes the awesomeness of Tool.

Actually I find drummers are most often the ones who don't want to use a click. Drumming anything complex to a click is bloody hard so I expect that's why. My theory is that it is because the speed of notes changes between limbs and far more frequently than other instruments. I mean its pretty rare for example to go between playing straight quarters and continuous 16ths and back within 4 bars but that's essentially a simple drum fill. The smallest deviations in these switches typically mount up throwing alot of drummers off the click.

Anyway that's all besides the point since I wasn't talking about clicks or even really just the drums. The performance as a band is pretty sloppy and I would say the bar is far higher these days then it was back then, especially for recorded material but also to an extent for playing live. I don't even get the vibe thing tbh, it doesnt sound like 3 guys locked into a groove to me, at least on the youtube vid I posted and it's true of a lot of other led zep material ive heard.

I mean look at stuff like early kyuss, that's basically recorded in a similar way to led zep records, very zepelliny material, far move groove, none of the sloppiness of led zep.

In my view led zep were fantastic for their time, hugely influencial and visionary but the world has moved on. Tbh it's crazy to propose that the first band to do something new will be the best at it since there will invariably be other bands that are influenced  / inspired by the early forefathers and improve on their first blueprint.

chillidoggy

Every drummer we've had has reacted to a click track like Superman to Kryptonite.

not_the_dj

chillidoggy said:

Every drummer we've had has reacted to a click track like Superman to Kryptonite.

I think it's in a Jeff Lynne/ELO docu where Ringo Starr is talking about recording with Jeff....

"Trouble is he always wants to use a click track......I'M THE F***ING CLICK TRACK"

Clarky

my drummer is fine with a click.. he played the whole album to a click.. all mental time sigs.. and played like a monster..

Danny1969

The advantage to recording to a click is you don't have to be a great drummer as if it's done to a click you can do it one bit at a time and it will all join together at the right tempo and you won't spot the joints. It also gives the producer a lot of latitude in choosing the fills that accent the song, I did a session last Friday where I recorded 15 different takes of drums to the same song and about 20 different fills that I can choose from the playlist and insert into the correct places  later. 

An excellent drummer who can get through the song perfectly without needing edits doesn't need a click really

Clarky

Danny1969 said:

The advantage to recording to a click is you don't have to be a great drummer as if it's done to a click you can do it one bit at a time and it will all join together at the right tempo and you won't spot the joints. It also gives the producer a lot of latitude in choosing the fills that accent the song, I did a session last Friday where I recorded 15 different takes of drums to the same song and about 20 different fills that I can choose from the playlist and insert into the correct places  later. 

An excellent drummer who can get through the song perfectly without needing edits doesn't need a click really

you suggesting the drums punch-in?? if the drums are mic'dI reckon that could be really difficult cos the ringing from the metals..

Danny1969

Clarky said:

Danny1969 said:

The advantage to recording to a click is you don't have to be a great drummer as if it's done to a click you can do it one bit at a time and it will all join together at the right tempo and you won't spot the joints. It also gives the producer a lot of latitude in choosing the fills that accent the song, I did a session last Friday where I recorded 15 different takes of drums to the same song and about 20 different fills that I can choose from the playlist and insert into the correct places  later. 

An excellent drummer who can get through the song perfectly without needing edits doesn't need a click really

you suggesting the drums punch-in?? if the drums are mic'dI reckon that could be really difficult cos the ringing from the metals..

Yeah I  do it all the time mate, I can made the edit invisible and that's with overs, close and room mics. The drummer won't know exactly what's gonna make the final cut till he hears it

PolarityMan

Danny1969 said:

An excellent drummer who can get through the song perfectly without needing edits doesn't need a click really

Probably true but excellent drummers are pretty rare.

Clarky

Danny1969 said:

Clarky said:

Danny1969 said:

The advantage to recording to a click is you don't have to be a great drummer as if it's done to a click you can do it one bit at a time and it will all join together at the right tempo and you won't spot the joints. It also gives the producer a lot of latitude in choosing the fills that accent the song, I did a session last Friday where I recorded 15 different takes of drums to the same song and about 20 different fills that I can choose from the playlist and insert into the correct places  later. 

An excellent drummer who can get through the song perfectly without needing edits doesn't need a click really

you suggesting the drums punch-in?? if the drums are mic'dI reckon that could be really difficult cos the ringing from the metals..

Yeah I  do it all the time mate, I can made the edit invisible and that's with overs, close and room mics. The drummer won't know exactly what's gonna make the final cut till he hears it

wow... imperssed... sounds pretty difficult to me..

Drew_TNBD

Clarky said:

Danny1969 said:

The advantage to recording to a click is you don't have to be a great drummer as if it's done to a click you can do it one bit at a time and it will all join together at the right tempo and you won't spot the joints. It also gives the producer a lot of latitude in choosing the fills that accent the song, I did a session last Friday where I recorded 15 different takes of drums to the same song and about 20 different fills that I can choose from the playlist and insert into the correct places  later. 

An excellent drummer who can get through the song perfectly without needing edits doesn't need a click really

you suggesting the drums punch-in?? if the drums are mic'dI reckon that could be really difficult cos the ringing from the metals..

Typical practice is to block a song out in sections, and let the cymbals ring over the bar. Then do a pre-roll, record from the downbeat and crossfade the two takes together. Standard practice really.

Clarky

I guess the killer part is identifying the most appropriate places to drop in and out

chillidoggy

Or not having a shit drummer.

mudslide73

I've got a liking for Tool's version.. LZ are my favourite band too.

I think what's being termed as "sloppy" is called "feel" round my house.

LastMantra

The Tool version is a pretty cool tune in it's own right.

Zodiac51

Thanks Drew, that's a great cover of one of my favourite songs.

Didn't realise it was a competition - can't they both be good in there own right? Does one HAVE to be better or the winner or whatever?

Drew_TNBD

Zodiac51;420647" said:

Thanks Drew, that's a great cover of one of my favourite songs.Didn't realise it was a competition - can't they both be good in there own right? Does one HAVE to be better or the winner or whatever?

#:-S