The cricket thread

Stuckfast

I think Jeffrey Dujon was once asked which of the great Windies fast bowlers was the fastest of all, and said Patrick Patterson. But yes Ian Bishop was lethally quick in his youth.

Jason Holder strikes me as having a bit of the Garner / Ambrose touch, though not as fast.

Heartfeltdawn

earwighoney said:

Over the last 15 years or so when I'd make the occasional visit to watch a day's test match at Lords I'd see Sir Clive pootling about. You're right he doesn't look like anyone else, in some ways he could be my tall distant fat Guyanese uncle (when I was fatter and had a moustache), he's possibly the most avuncular genius of test match cricket (I can think of, I imagine @Heartfeltdawn dawn will come out and correct me with 5 guys from the India, Pakistan and Sri Lankan teams who are even more avuncular and won Wisden awards for their contribution to the very fields). 

The most important thing about Gladstone Small is that he has no neck. Back, then head. No neck.

I can't correct you here, good sir Sir Clive is one of the most underrated cricketers on the face of the planet as well as one of the friendliest and sincere you could ever hope to meet, as I have once. Consider this, his Wiki entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Lloyd

Lee fucking Germon has a longer Wiki entry than Clive Lloyd. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Germon

How?!? The guy was a superb captain, a brilliant first-class cricketer, won two World Cups and scored a century in one of them against a very good Australia side at a rate that would still stand up in today's hit and giggle cricket. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHieIMlSSDM

Incredibly fast hands, perhaps even quicker than Sobers, with the bat, and able to be that fast even with an absolute tree trunk of a bat. 

crunchman

Stuckfast said:

I think Jeffrey Dujon was once asked which of the great Windies fast bowlers was the fastest of all, and said Patrick Patterson. But yes Ian Bishop was lethally quick in his youth.

Jason Holder strikes me as having a bit of the Garner / Ambrose touch, though not as fast.

Dujon never kept to Holding at his quickest.  He didn't make his debut until 1981, which was 5 years after Holding's epic 1976 series.  By 1981, he had slowed down a bit.

There was one pundit who had seen everyone of the last 50 years or so who said that Holding was the quickest he had seen for sustained pace.  He said that the likes of Thommo could bowl faster on occasion when everything clicked, but Holding could sustain his pace and bowl it consistently.

earwighoney

Heartfeltdawn said:

I can't correct you here, good sir Sir Clive is one of the most underrated cricketers on the face of the planet as well as one of the friendliest and sincere you could ever hope to meet, as I have once. Consider this, his Wiki entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Lloyd

Lee fucking Germon has a longer Wiki entry than Clive Lloyd. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Germon

How?!? The guy was a superb captain, a brilliant first-class cricketer, won two World Cups and scored a century in one of them against a very good Australia side at a rate that would still stand up in today's hit and giggle cricket. 

Some truly fine points. I saw a documentary about him and the great team he captained and there was a lot of emphasis on his abilities as a captain; to unite and get the very best out of a team with a lot of varied and contrasting characters. Seems like a good guy as well.

Heartfeltdawn

guitars4you said:

You mention Clive Lloyd - I never saw him life, but I saw Michael Holding - When he played for Derbyshire he played near our local village for a charity match - Of about 3 paces incredible how fast and smooth/slick he was - The crowd were asking him to show the full run up and pace but he wouldn't 

That's the mark of a real quick bowler to my mind. Two instances spring to attention. The first was watching Waqar Younis for the first time play for Pakistan against the NCA in 1996. The pace he was getting on his practice deliveries bowling into the ground on a one-step run-up was astounding. Ironically he bowled like a drain in the match itself but we're talking some rapid pies. At the other end was Wasim Akram. Again, one-step bowling practice was stunning. 

The second was a six-a-side tournament at Teddington CC in 1998. Each side had a South Africa touring squad member in their ranks. All the quicks were off three paces. On display: Pollock, Nantie Hayward, Ntini, and Jacques Kallis. All were sharp. And all looked hard a yard slower than Allan Donald. Three paces, just that next level of pace compared to everyone else. The one delivery he bowled off the full run was beautiful to observe at close quarters. Lillee at his peak had a beautiful action, Michael Holding was grace personified, and there's something about Shoaib Akhtar's full effort run up that I've really liked but Allan Donald's action is the one I wish I'd been genetically blessed with. The picture below is one I had on my wall for many years. Both feet off the ground, left arm there, beautiful wrist position, and the sheer level of focus on the guy at the other end. 

 

scrumhalf

Didn't Geoff Boycott say about that over from Holding in ?Barbados? that he thought he wasn't bowling flat out?

guitars4you

Going back to my WI bowling attack - I started watching Test Match cricket around 1971 and a year or so later I was lucky enough to see Lillie - Only 12 or so, and therefore far to young to appreciate him

So since then, based on a potential 4 man attack + a spin bowler which will have to be Warne - Which other pace bowlers, from around the world, would beat Holding, Marshall, Walsh, Ambrose to earn a place in your attack - Lillie, Donald, Wasim, Waqar, Pollock, McGrath, Steyn, Hadlee and possibly our own Jimmy Anderson are obvious challengers

As an attack of 4, whichever set of 4 pace bowlers the WI picked, they probably had the advantage that if one did not get you the other did, so as a combination they were nearly always lethal - Yes other great WI pace bowlers would have an influence in the team, but not for as long - Yet part of me says the other non WI bowlers I mentioned are 'better' in that they were not part of a gang of 4 - Sometimes not even a gang of 2 - So an element of me saying that  they had to produce what they did in a less 'potent' team attack and to a degree had to always carry the attack - Obviously an hypothetical question and I doubt any of us would pick the same combination of 4 pace bowlers - I've already changed my mind 3 times, so not yet declared my attack

With a fast attack of 4, + spin, then a wicket keeper at 6, that leaves 5 batsman so effectively no all rounder - Yet part of me says you could have Kallis, or Kapil Dev in at 3-5 as an all rounder role, if you ever thought the above 5 bowlers needed help - Doubtful 

Heartfeltdawn

earwighoney said:

Some truly fine points. I saw a documentary about him and the great team he captained and there was a lot of emphasis on his abilities as a captain; to unite and get the very best out of a team with a lot of varied and contrasting characters. Seems like a good guy as well.

Absolutely this. West Indies cricket has always had a bit of niggle behind the scenes, a lot more of which has been public in recent years since the Windies heyday. CLR James detailed this in "Beyond A Boundary" going years back. The variations between cultures across the islands of the West Indies meant that a good captain had to work to get these cultures to gel and Lloyd did that so well. 

As a batsman, he's so underrated. Consider his cumulative average:

After 50 Tests, he was averaging 45 having scored 3600 runs. At Test 110, he was averaging 46 having scored 7515 runs. That's amazingly consistent and quite remarkable for a player getting older after those first 50 Tests who wore glasses. 

Heartfeltdawn

guitars4you said:

Just thinking - WI generally had a 4 pace attack - so from the late 70's to mid 90's who would be your lethal 4

Holding, Marshall, Walsh, Ambrose  - So no Garner - Wow !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and pick who gets the new ball out of that bunch - I'd probably rotate it and let them decide

Marshall, Holding, Ambrose, Garner. Marshall always gets the new ball and his partner rotates. 

guitars4you

just seen the BBC test match re-run last week of WI in 1984 is part of an ongoing series so more to come each Sat for a few weeks - Get the beers in and I'm in for this

RandallFlagg

So chaps, I gather there's just a few weeks to go until some cricket. Are the WI Tests behind closed doors or are spectators allowed in?

sixstringsupplies

Completely behind closed doors.  ICC have introduced new rules that allow teams to replace players if they show COVID symptoms. (imagine batting at 3, knocking off 88 not out overnight, and then getting a fever and cough overnight!)

I can't wait. There are only so many historical games and best cricket sledges videos ("mind the windows Tino") that you can watch on YouTube.

Sadly, if there was  no COVID, I'd b expecting a very competitive series. Windies have some great players.
But a few of them have pulled out of the tour, so I'm optimistically going for a 3-0 drubbing.

Heartfeltdawn

https://www.thecricketer.com/Topics/news/recreational_cricket_restrictions_cannot_be_relaxed_says_prime_minister_boris_johnson.html

But basketball is fine. And hairdressers and pubs. And Premier League footballers hugging one another. And tennis despite the world number 1 having just come down with CV19. 

earwighoney

Heartfeltdawn said:

https://www.thecricketer.com/Topics/news/recreational_cricket_restrictions_cannot_be_relaxed_says_prime_minister_boris_johnson.html

But basketball is fine. And hairdressers and pubs. And Premier League footballers hugging one another. And tennis despite the world number 1 having just come down with CV19. 

It's difficult to see how cricket is excluded and other sports will take place. My nephew's back playing in nets as well, it's a weird one for sure.

crunchman

Really strange.  There are likely to be more hands on a basketball than a cricket ball.

scrumhalf

You can eliminate any covid traces on the ball by giving it a light sanding. I believe that one of the test-playing nations has already conducted significant research into this. 

pigface

scrumhalf said:

You can eliminate any covid traces on the ball by giving it a light sanding. I believe that one of the test-playing nations has already conducted significant research into this. 

Ah yes, Atherton in 1994, wasn't it?

UnclePsychosis

pigface said:

scrumhalf said:

You can eliminate any covid traces on the ball by giving it a light sanding. I believe that one of the test-playing nations has already conducted significant research into this. 

Ah yes, Atherton in 1994, wasn't it?

Sssh, ball tampering only counts if you're not English. 

scrumhalf

Atherton owned up.

Aussie reaction was to say that a big boy did it and ran away. 

UnclePsychosis

scrumhalf said:

Atherton owned up.

No, he didn't. He was "drying his hands" apparently. Then you get to Trescothick and his bag of mints. 

Ball tampering is pretty common, but the outrage seems fairly selective.