The cricket thread

scrumhalf

Archer - d'oh.

And it's raining.

scrumhalf

Once again England have no answer to Rosten Chase.

This isn't looking good so far. 

Heartfeltdawn

This series does show how close cricket could be if you erase the advantage a home team generally has, namely that they're more used to the conditions that the tourists. Because first class cricket hasn't happened, you've got two sides who are up and down.

Joe Denly should be allowed a wry raise of the eyebrows too. If Crawley fails for the rest of the series, where do we go next? Ed Smith knows all about scoring some runs on debut and then being ditched quickly. Dan Lawrence isn't a number three and it's asking a hell of a lot for the like of James Bracey to come in on the back of no FC cricket and make a debut at 3. 

Interesting stat here: In 65 Tests Ben Stokes averages 37 with the bat and has 9 centuries. 

In 14 games that he's played with Denly in the side, he averages 49.78 and has three centuries. That includes an Ashes series at home and going to South Africa, never an easy series.  

Perhaps that notion that Denly did blunt attacks without scoring heavily isn't so daft after all. 

sixstringsupplies

Heartfeltdawn said:

Interesting stat here: In 65 Tests Ben Stokes averages 37 with the bat and has 9 centuries. 

In 14 games that he's played with Denly in the side, he averages 49.78 and has three centuries. That includes an Ashes series at home and going to South Africa, never an easy series.  

Perhaps that notion that Denly did blunt attacks without scoring heavily isn't so daft after all. 

Good stat that. I've felt for the past 2-3 years that Stokes is our best batsman, technically and mentally. As classy as a player Root can be, his conversion rate has been shocking long before he became captain. 

Interesting read from Dobell on cricinfo about Butler. https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/29468548/stubborn-ed-smith-staking-reputation-jos-buttler-test-career

I'd stick with Butler, not many international keepers average more than him in test cricket and if he can get his test average up to 35-37 I would settle with that for a no.7. Dobell references his dropped catch in the first test (Blackwood) which probably could have seen England win had it been taken, but that was his first dropped catch in 2 years. 

It has been interesting reading a lot of comments about the top 3 (with Denly included) about how bloodey boring it is with 3 chocolate bat players. Personally I would rather have one aggressive opener, one defensive, and a defensive no.3 (or 2 out of the top 3 being defensive players, one of whom can score at a SR of over 50. 

Enjoying Sibley though,  Proper test batting that. 

Hopefully Sibley can get a "daddy" 100 hundred tomorrow (though that would probably mean batting or another 80 overs) but I can see Stokes, Buttler (I hope), Curran and Woakes knocing the score on a bit.

Heartfeltdawn

Stokes has the perfect role model for how to approach batting as an all-rounder as he gets older and loses a little bit with the ball in Jacques Kallis. He's batting with greater responsibility and a greater ability to know when to shift gear. 

Buttler is an interesting one. Tim Paine's not regarded as a great bat but he averages a teeny bit more than Buttler. Shane Dowrich for the West Indies averages slightly less but has three centuries under his belt in 32 Tests whilst Buttler has one. Quinton De Kock is well ahead on JB in terms of average and centuries as is BJ Watling. Wriddhiman Saha has a slightly lower average but three Test centuries and is well ahead of JB in terms of glovework. Pakistan's Rizwan averages more but has only played six Tests. So around the world, I'd actually say that there are plenty of keepers who have a) contributed more with the bat at vital times (remember Dowrich in the 1st Test for instance) and are better with the gloves. 

With batsmen, it appears we have moved with the elevation of the like of Sibley, Pope, and Crawley to start picking players who know how to bat for long periods of time. How does Buttler fit into that? When you see how similar his Test and first-class average is and compare that to how he's risen in the one-day game, then it's not hard to figure that he's got some failings at the red ball game. He's different to Bairstow in that YJB has shown he can play well at first class level but I feel both have simply gotten too much into the one-day mindset and the technique for the longer form of the game has fallen by the wayside in the case of the latter and never developed in the former. You look at how they've been out as a pointer for technique failings. YJB got bowled a lot. Over 2018-19, he was bowled 13 times in 39 innings (Root bowled 22 times in 170 innings by way of comparison). Buttler is most often caught (42 times in 75 innings). 

Buttler has so much talent but he's not been used right in Test cricket at any point to my mind. 

I'm quite happy for three defensive players in the top three slot because we have a 4 to lower middle order who can really go for it and take on a tiring attack.  

steveledzep

Always amazes me that Buttler has two ts in his name and hardly any of the media pundits pronounce them.

crunchman

As @Heartfeltdawn says, Buttler doesn't have a good first class average.  If there was noone else, he might be worth persisting with, but we have Foakes.  He's averaged 41 in the 5 tests he's played so far.  That's a small sample size, and it will probably come down a bit, but he is a good batsman, and is probably capable of averaging over 30 long term.

Buttler's keeping has improved, and he's not dreadful standing back, but standing up to the stumps he's a liability when it comes to stumping chances.  You have to remember we are touring India this winter, where the keeper will need to be standing up a lot.   He'll give away more byes than Foakes as well.

He does have an incredible talent, but until he goes away and proves himself in county cricket, and shows that he can average 50 in a first class season (which Foakes has done), then I'd leave him out.

Heartfeltdawn

So. Dominic Bess. 

Turning pitch in the 1st Test bowling in the final innings, did nowt. 

21 overs at Old Trafford on a pitch giving considerable assistance in second innings of the game. Dismissed one tailender as nightwatchman. Looks like he'll get a bowl today on a 5th day turner. Already seen the oppo spinner get wickets this series. 

Quite a bit of pressure on him to deliver, I'd say. 

crunchman

Why aren't they declaring.

No way the Windies are chasing 271.  All they are doing is risking them escaping with a draw if there is bad light.

scrumhalf

It would have been great to have had a crowd there today, cheering Stokes on as he carted the Windies bowling around.

85 overs to bowl the Windies out, with a rain break a possibility. I don't think they can get 312 (no Greenidge!). 

guitars4you

scrumhalf said:

It would have been great to have had a crowd there today, cheering Stokes on as he carted the Windies bowling around.

85 overs to bowl the Windies out, with a rain break a possibility. I don't think they can get 312 (no Greenidge!). 

I saw that run chase a few weeks ago on a BBC hi-lights show

25 for 3 - Will be an interesting afternoon and 5 Live Sports Extra is keeping me entertained

Heartfeltdawn

Lots of fun. 

Broady shows why people saying he isn't a first team choice are idiots.

Bess bowled OK without ever looking to be on top of the batsmen. Personally I don't think he's done enough to warrant keeping him as lead spinner but he's clearly in favour at the minute. The stats are pretty clear who should be bowling though. 

JL at home: 5 Tests, 20 wickets at 28, SR of 52.3
DB at home: 4 Tests, 8 wickets at 41, SR of 72.6

Stokes: astounding. Part of me still vomits when commentators talk about his sixes because some of them are more about bat construction rather than outright skill. What is truly amazing about Stokes is how he puts everything into everything. His chase and dive off his own bowling today really sums him up. Brilliant performance. 

Shamarh Brooks: that's two of the best 50s you'll see anywhere on a difficult pitch. Fancy he''ll get snapped up for some County Championship games quite soon. 

guitars4you

Great win - all to play for with 1 match left - Will be interesting to see what bowling options they decide

scrumhalf

At one point today I thought that the Windies might bat out the day, but they seem to have the same "five out, all out" trouble we often have.

The deciding test should be very interesting, and there are selection headaches with the bowlers.

As for Ben Stokes, he can play a bit, can't he. 

Heartfeltdawn

guitars4you said:

Great win - all to play for with 1 match left - Will be interesting to see what bowling options they decide

Seeing how that Old Trafford wicket played, the new ball is best utilised by taller bowlers who hit the deck and then let the skiddier seamers go first change. The assistance for the spinners should be there. Assumming people are available and fully fit...

Sibley
Burns
Crawley
Root
Stokes
Pope
Buttler (last orders at the final chance saloon)
Curran
Archer
Broad
Leach

If Archer is not eligible to play then I'd select Ollie Robinson but they'll go Woakes. 

scrumhalf

Well, here we go. Windies won the toss and have put England in. Curran and Crawley out, Anderson and Archer in. 

scrumhalf

Oh dear.

Sibley lbw b Roach 0. Horribly lbw. 

1-1 after one over. 

sixstringsupplies

Decent knock that by Pope. I find his grip fascinating, he holds the bat with his hands quite far apart.
However the media seem to be lapping it up today, England are in a good position yes, but it is all too easy (especially for England) to be 300 all out.

 

scrumhalf

Pope batted well, as did Buttler.

I wouldn't be surprised if we failed to make 350, but a morning session of those two could be interesting. 

scrumhalf

Three wickets gone in the first half hour.

Oh dear.