Line 6 Helix

guitarfishbay

As long as you can get it to where you still like the sound then just don't worry about it.

The best sound I ever had was guitar straight into Mesa Roadster. However I needed to use FX, and the FX loop, both of which changed the sound. It still sounded good.

If you ever want the pure tone with no FX just plug straight in.

dindude

Also, why not throw together a very small "purist" board of a select few pedals for when you're in that mood, and keep the Helix for when you want options. 

This is was one of the best sounding boards I've had!:
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n505/dindude/361437b9fca6380028a4b7a521c3088a_zps5ksdtwqe.jpg

stickyfiddle

dindude said:

Also, why not throw together a very small "purist" board of a select few pedals for when you're in that mood, and keep the Helix for when you want options. 

This is was one of the best sounding boards I've had!:
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n505/dindude/361437b9fca6380028a4b7a521c3088a_zps5ksdtwqe.jpg

I plan on doing just that. Fuzz, Klon, something swirly and maybe a delay

stratman3142

For those that are a bit obsessive and curious about these things (like me ) I stumbled on a recent thread about the Helix audio latency at the link below:

http://line6.com/support/topic/27239-helix-latency-what-is-it-really/#entry211826

It would appear that the audio latency is about 1.8ms, which would be imperceptible to me and I certainly haven't noticed anything from using my LT.

What is interesting is that each send and return block (in series) would add similar amounts of latency. I suppose it's something to be aware of if you're using 4CM and then start to stack further effects in series within multiple send and return loops. If you start to feel it, I suppose you just need to stand a bit closer to your amp .

guitarfishbay

stratman3142 said:

What is interesting is that each send and return block (in series) would add similar amounts of latency. I suppose it's something to be aware of if you're using 4CM and then start to stack further effects in series within multiple send and return loops. If you start to feel it, I suppose you just need to stand a bit closer to your amp .

I never considered that but it makes senese - here's the copy paste from that post to make it clearer.

Each and every time you convert A/D -> D/A it's 1.8 ms ...Yes that means each loop you engage adds 1.8 ms

So to be clear.  guitar in + 4 loops (in series) + 1/4" out = 9ms maximum of latency due to A/d conversion

4 cable method should clock in at around 3.6ms  (assuming no other effects in circuit)

Sporky

9ms ought to be imperceptible on its own. It's about the same as standing another 3m from your amp.

guitarfishbay

Sporky said:

9ms ought to be imperceptible on its own. It's about the same as standing another 3m from your amp.

Easy to test that one.  Set up a 100% wet delay block with 7.2ms delay and no repeats.  Switch it on and off while playing. 

Sporky

I'd make one modification to that - have someone else switch it on and off while you play so you don't know when it's happening.

Or, if you have one knocking about, use a Source Audio Reflex on a slow random LFO to turn it on and off.

guitarfishbay

Sporky said:

I'd make one modification to that - have someone else switch it on and off while you play so you don't know when it's happening.

Or, if you have one knocking about, use a Source Audio Reflex on a slow random LFO to turn it on and off.

So the test is really comparing between 1.8ms latency (just using Helix) and 9ms latency (using all loops).  So really the test is wrong - it's adding 7.2ms latency (will amend my post).

I feel adding 7.2ms latency would be noticeable in the scenario where you're either sat directly in front of monitors, or listening on headphones.  

If you're already stood further away I'm less sure, but I've never tested that.  I'd imagine the difference would be smaller to imperceptible because you're already less connected at that point - being stood right in front of a speaker/listening on headphones is as connected as you'll get.  Using multiple loops is not a scenario I'd consider anyway, my philosophy is to either use everything on a multi FX or all separates, just to keep everything at its maximum simplicity.

RandallFlagg

dindude said:

Also, why not throw together a very small "purist" board of a select few pedals for when you're in that mood, and keep the Helix for when you want options. 

This is was one of the best sounding boards I've had!:
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n505/dindude/361437b9fca6380028a4b7a521c3088a_zps5ksdtwqe.jpg

Now that is an excellent suggestion. I do like the idea of a very simple 2 pedal board, Would probably be a drive (oh God, which one?) with a Strymon Flint or El Capistan.

Now you've got me thinking about some more spending! damn.

Sporky

guitarfishbay said:

So the test is really comparing between 1.8ms latency (just using Helix) and 9ms latency (using all loops).  So really the test is wrong - it's adding 7.2ms latency (will amend my post).

I feel adding 7.2ms latency would be noticeable in the scenario where you're either sat directly infront of monitors, or listening on headphones.  If you're already stood further away I'm less sure, but I've never tested that.

Excellent point.

I'll give it a go; my monitors are within a metre or so of where I play.

RandallFlagg

dindude said:

RandallFlagg said:

I'm disappointed with my Helix for the first time since getting it last year.

I bought a new amp recently, a Morgan PR12, which sounds great and I want to use the Helix for effects only through the front and it works a treat for that no problem. I have everything I need either in stompbox mode with scenes for each of my guitars or I can use presets as and when required. All good.

But, this weekend I spent some time A/B'ing between guitar direct to amp and via Helix with everything off and there is a change in the dry sound running through the Helix. I'm losing something that is really hard to put into words, but a smoothness, rounding of the tone, is lost and the dry tone through the Helix sounds a little colder, brighter maybe, a little more solid state amp sounding. It's subtle but noticeable.  

The Morgan's pure tone is so good that it's really worth preserving so I am in a dilemma now as to whether the Helix is really cutting it for me in front of the amp but I love the mulit-fx programmability and convenience and also have the Helix available for direct to desktop playing and recording, just wish I could keep that pure Morgan tone.

Thing to remember is that anything you put between the guitar and amp will have an effect. My pedalboard is not too excessive, all anolog (except for the delay which has a very good anolog dry-through), and I'm absolutely anal about the signal path, but the board still dulls my amp a little compared to running direct. So the choice needs to be if it is too much of a compromise vs the extra sounds you get.

The best approach is to accept the change, not get obsessed with A/B'ing, and dial in your amp with the board/Helix in the path, you may have to change the tone controls or volume to compensate but ultimately if the sounds coming out the end are satisfactory then jobs a goodun. 

I got over my own dilemma by putting a very nice and very subtle sounding compressor as my "clean" sound (I.e. I never run the amp with no pedals at all), it enhances the tone to the point where I prefer it to going direct so I don't feel like I'm loosing out now.

Having said all of that, digital gear does do something else, it is converting your signal to digital and back again, there's no getting away from that.

I guess. I don't have any stomp box pedals lying around to demonstrate how they will affect the tone as well but I know my small board that I had before the Helix did so you're right. I should never have tried the amp direct but always through the Helix, I would be none the wiser!

fretmeister

Train your brain to think of it in another way.

The Helix is removing what you don't need in the signal. It's trying to prevent you from obsessing about it.

It's doing you a favour. It is sentient...

Drew_TNBD

guitarfishbay said:

Drew noted that he thinks he can feel 1ms with drums.

I think you misunderstood me or I wasn't clear enough. What I meant in that other thread was that with midi drums there is already significant points of latency that an additional 1ms can make a big difference.

I cannot feel 1ms difference when micing up an acoustic drumkit and monitoring it via headphones.

Drew_TNBD

RandallFlagg said:

I'm disappointed with my Helix for the first time since getting it last year.

I bought a new amp recently, a Morgan PR12, which sounds great and I want to use the Helix for effects only through the front and it works a treat for that no problem. I have everything I need either in stompbox mode with scenes for each of my guitars or I can use presets as and when required. All good.

But, this weekend I spent some time A/B'ing between guitar direct to amp and via Helix with everything off and there is a change in the dry sound running through the Helix. I'm losing something that is really hard to put into words, but a smoothness, rounding of the tone, is lost and the dry tone through the Helix sounds a little colder, brighter maybe, a little more solid state amp sounding. It's subtle but noticeable.  

The Morgan's pure tone is so good that it's really worth preserving so I am in a dilemma now as to whether the Helix is really cutting it for me in front of the amp but I love the mulit-fx programmability and convenience and also have the Helix available for direct to desktop playing and recording, just wish I could keep that pure Morgan tone.

Are you using 4 cable method?

If so, take the master volume out of the signal path by changing the preference for it; make it control just the XLRs.

That way, you're not getting any attenuation via the master outputs that could fool you into thinking there is a tone difference.

guitarfishbay

Drew_TNBD said:

guitarfishbay said:

Drew noted that he thinks he can feel 1ms with drums.

I think you misunderstood me or I wasn't clear enough. What I meant in that other thread was that with midi drums there is already significant points of latency that an additional 1ms can make a big difference.

I cannot feel 1ms difference when micing up an acoustic drumkit and monitoring it via headphones.

Maybe my post isn't clear enough either... I can edit that bit to stop it being distracting from the discussion.

I'm talking about additional latency.  Everything has some latency.  I don't think you'd feel 1.8ms, or reliably feel adding 1.8ms to that either, but I think it'd be possibly to feel adding 7.2ms, assuming you're next to the source/listening on headphones and already had pretty low latency. 

Sporky

Drew_TNBD said:

guitarfishbay said:

Drew noted that he thinks he can feel 1ms with drums.

I think you misunderstood me or I wasn't clear enough. What I meant in that other thread was that with midi drums there is already significant points of latency that an additional 1ms can make a big difference.

Makes sense - people have a threshold where they notice latency, which is (if I remember correctly) typically 15-20ms. So if your threshold is, say, 15ms, and there's 14ms in the system, adding another 1ms would take it from not noticeable to noticeable, whereas with acoustic drums, adding even 10ms wouldn't be noticeable.

Drew_TNBD

Also, I've not noticed any tonal changes to be honest. The Helix is the first unit where my first reaction was "that's absolutely transparent" - so at that point if my first reaction was that it was transparent, and days or months later I start to think differently... I'm more likely to put that down to some sort of bias rather than actual lack of transparency.

Whereas when I had the Axe FX II, Boss GT-100, PodHD, and M9/M13 units in 4-cable method... I heard a difference and a lack of transparency immediately.

RandallFlagg

Drew_TNBD said:

RandallFlagg said:

I'm disappointed with my Helix for the first time since getting it last year.

I bought a new amp recently, a Morgan PR12, which sounds great and I want to use the Helix for effects only through the front and it works a treat for that no problem. I have everything I need either in stompbox mode with scenes for each of my guitars or I can use presets as and when required. All good.

But, this weekend I spent some time A/B'ing between guitar direct to amp and via Helix with everything off and there is a change in the dry sound running through the Helix. I'm losing something that is really hard to put into words, but a smoothness, rounding of the tone, is lost and the dry tone through the Helix sounds a little colder, brighter maybe, a little more solid state amp sounding. It's subtle but noticeable.  

The Morgan's pure tone is so good that it's really worth preserving so I am in a dilemma now as to whether the Helix is really cutting it for me in front of the amp but I love the mulit-fx programmability and convenience and also have the Helix available for direct to desktop playing and recording, just wish I could keep that pure Morgan tone.

Are you using 4 cable method?

If so, take the master volume out of the signal path by changing the preference for it; make it control just the XLRs.

That way, you're not getting any attenuation via the master outputs that could fool you into thinking there is a tone difference.

No fx loop on Morgan PR12 and just one volume control (it's a really simple amp) so Helix in the front

guitarfishbay

Drew_TNBD said:

Also, I've not noticed any tonal changes to be honest. The Helix is the first unit where my first reaction was "that's absolutely transparent" - so at that point if my first reaction was that it was transparent, and days or months later I start to think differently... I'm more likely to put that down to some sort of bias rather than actual lack of transparency.

Whereas when I had the Axe FX II, Boss GT-100, PodHD, and M9/M13 units in 4-cable method... I heard a difference and a lack of transparency immediately.

I think this was acknowledged on the Axe FX 2 mk1 and mk2 (IIRC You had the mk2), and addressed in the XL/XL+ revisions.  Honestly, I've never tried 4CM with the Axe FX 2 (I have the XL).