The Rugby Union Thread

Fretwired

Rocker said:

I am glad to see that people here are acknowledging that there are problems with the game of rugby. Scrims, scoring (encouraging try scoring rather than penalties), etc. I have written about this several times already.

Look at scoring. Wales were complaining that they should have beaten England as they scored more tries. But Wales kept giving away penalties which England chose to take. Had Wales not given away so many penalties then England would have probably scored more tries as they would have had to attack the Welsh line. If the difference in points between a penalty and a try becomes too wide then defending teams will probably think giving away a penalty to stop the opposition from scoring a try worth while. And if the attacking team decides to kick for touch at least the defending team can reorganise their defence which in the modern game is tough to beat.

snakemanStoo

You see this a lot in rugby league.

So much so that it's odd seeing penalty kicks at goal are a real rarity. 

lloyd

koneguitarist said:

joneve said:

Yet you seem to be the only person in the world with this opinion? Not even the french give enough fucks about it to report it to the citing commissioner?

so tell me, what is the ruling on hands in the eye area?

By the letter of the law he's got his hands in the guys eyes which is reckless.

Personally I'm surprised nothing happened about him bringing Fickou down by the head. 

Nothing intentional in it but there we go.

joneve

koneguitarist said:

I'm waiting?

Sorry for the delay, had actual life stuff to be getting on with rather than debating something that no one else seems to care about on an internet forum. 

I understand what you're saying, but there are tens, possibly hundreds of people more qualified than you (some of which were on the OPPOSING SIDE to England) who obviously felt than there wasn't enough of an incident for it to be reported. If the French Federation were getting their knickers in a twist as much as you were, and reported it, there's a strong possibility that he would have been cited. 

He didn't, and no amount of you moaning is going to change it, so you might as well get on with life and not waste your energy on something you can't control? You never know, you might live longer  

kjdowd

lloyd said:

crunchman said:

I'm not sure the driving maul is helpful.  I know they are changing the rules so that you won't be able to hand it back it to the guy at the back in the future.

I think the main problem at the top level is that there is not enough space on the pitch.  I'd like to see a 12 or 13 a side game with Union rules.  Have 6 forwards and either 6 or 7 backs.  You would have more space, and the forwards would have to be a bit lighter and faster around.

The problem is that this won't work at the lower levels of the game.

The maul is currently a huge bugbear for me, attacking team is given free reign to do anything while the defending team is not. The amount of split mauls which go offside but not penalised is ridiculous. I'd have no passing of the ball in a maul and penalise those that drive in front of the ball carrier when detached.

I don't know why more teams just don't contest the maul. Only a maul if the opposition is bound, and if it's not a maul then half the attacking forwards will be offside/obstructing and the defending team can run around the maul to the ball carrier without being offside. 

Has its risks, obviously...

lloyd

kjdowd said:

lloyd said:

crunchman said:

I'm not sure the driving maul is helpful.  I know they are changing the rules so that you won't be able to hand it back it to the guy at the back in the future.

I think the main problem at the top level is that there is not enough space on the pitch.  I'd like to see a 12 or 13 a side game with Union rules.  Have 6 forwards and either 6 or 7 backs.  You would have more space, and the forwards would have to be a bit lighter and faster around.

The problem is that this won't work at the lower levels of the game.

The maul is currently a huge bugbear for me, attacking team is given free reign to do anything while the defending team is not. The amount of split mauls which go offside but not penalised is ridiculous. I'd have no passing of the ball in a maul and penalise those that drive in front of the ball carrier when detached.

I don't know why more teams just don't contest the maul. Only a maul if the opposition is bound, and if it's not a maul then half the attacking forwards will be offside/obstructing and the defending team can run around the maul to the ball carrier without being offside. 

Has its risks, obviously...

Ireland have done this all tournament, they didn't engage with the forwards (off lineouts obviously) and it worked as you say everyone's offside.

It's a clever ploy that I'm surprised more teams haven't done, i think they did it in the WC too but can't be sure, they certainly did it in most defensive lineouts in their 22 in the 6N though.

To be fair it's a great tactic but something that the laws should be looknig at as it needs to be part of the game, just one that doesn't give all the advantage to the team with possession. 

kjdowd

lloyd said:

kjdowd said:

lloyd said:

crunchman said:

I'm not sure the driving maul is helpful.  I know they are changing the rules so that you won't be able to hand it back it to the guy at the back in the future.

I think the main problem at the top level is that there is not enough space on the pitch.  I'd like to see a 12 or 13 a side game with Union rules.  Have 6 forwards and either 6 or 7 backs.  You would have more space, and the forwards would have to be a bit lighter and faster around.

The problem is that this won't work at the lower levels of the game.

The maul is currently a huge bugbear for me, attacking team is given free reign to do anything while the defending team is not. The amount of split mauls which go offside but not penalised is ridiculous. I'd have no passing of the ball in a maul and penalise those that drive in front of the ball carrier when detached.

I don't know why more teams just don't contest the maul. Only a maul if the opposition is bound, and if it's not a maul then half the attacking forwards will be offside/obstructing and the defending team can run around the maul to the ball carrier without being offside. 

Has its risks, obviously...

Ireland have done this all tournament, they didn't engage with the forwards (off lineouts obviously) and it worked as you say everyone's offside.

It's a clever ploy that I'm surprised more teams haven't done, i think they did it in the WC too but can't be sure, they certainly did it in most defensive lineouts in their 22 in the 6N though.

To be fair it's a great tactic but something that the laws should be looknig at as it needs to be part of the game, just one that doesn't give all the advantage to the team with possession. 

Apparently Sarries were doing it last season on and off.

lloyd

kjdowd said:

lloyd said:

kjdowd said:

lloyd said:

crunchman said:

I'm not sure the driving maul is helpful.  I know they are changing the rules so that you won't be able to hand it back it to the guy at the back in the future.

I think the main problem at the top level is that there is not enough space on the pitch.  I'd like to see a 12 or 13 a side game with Union rules.  Have 6 forwards and either 6 or 7 backs.  You would have more space, and the forwards would have to be a bit lighter and faster around.

The problem is that this won't work at the lower levels of the game.

The maul is currently a huge bugbear for me, attacking team is given free reign to do anything while the defending team is not. The amount of split mauls which go offside but not penalised is ridiculous. I'd have no passing of the ball in a maul and penalise those that drive in front of the ball carrier when detached.

I don't know why more teams just don't contest the maul. Only a maul if the opposition is bound, and if it's not a maul then half the attacking forwards will be offside/obstructing and the defending team can run around the maul to the ball carrier without being offside. 

Has its risks, obviously...

Ireland have done this all tournament, they didn't engage with the forwards (off lineouts obviously) and it worked as you say everyone's offside.

It's a clever ploy that I'm surprised more teams haven't done, i think they did it in the WC too but can't be sure, they certainly did it in most defensive lineouts in their 22 in the 6N though.

To be fair it's a great tactic but something that the laws should be looknig at as it needs to be part of the game, just one that doesn't give all the advantage to the team with possession. 

Apparently Sarries were doing it last season on and off.

Ah right, I don't follow the English game as much as I'd like to.

lloyd

Hogg player of the tournament.....

kjdowd

lloyd;1013898" said:

gHogg player of the tournament.....

Fairy nuff. Few decent contenders but like that Hogg has got it.

lloyd

kjdowd said:

lloyd;1013898" said:

gHogg player of the tournament.....

Fairy nuff. Few decent contenders but like that Hogg has got it.

I always prefer it to go to a player in a team that's won the thing and preferably a forward, unless they have been ridiculously head and shoulders above everyone else, which to be fair I don't think Hogg has this year, the best full back yes, but not the best player for me.

eSully

Connor O'Shea officially announced as new Italian head coach. Good news for Italy that. Hopefully they can kick. On and improve after a terrible run in the 6 nations

lloyd

Watched some super rugby this morning now watching the Ospreys v Scarlets in the pro12 the difference in standard is absolutely staggering. Little wonder the SH have dominated for so long, they are streets ahead. Is the standard of the journeymen there that will never get a cap for the big 3 that sets them apart, again, Regan King looks a class apart on the pitch and he had to leave New Zealand to get a game....depressing really. We need a European league sooner rather than later or we'll fall further behind. England and France included.

eSully

I got to catch some of the sun wolves vs bulls game at the in laws. Couldn't agree with you more @lloyd. The passing and basic skills from the sun wolves, First season in super rugby was superb. Compare that to the Italian sides that both shipped 50 odd points last night against Munster and blues who themselves are no great shakes.

lloyd

@eSully yeah that's the game I watched mostly, really enjoyed the Sunwolves with ball in hand. They've lost all their games but they'll be ok I think. I'm not sure what should happen to the Italian sides, it's an introduction that hasn't worked, kind of shoe horned in. In Super Rugby a franchise has to meet certain financial criteria in order to be allowed in, which is a good is the way to do it. I want the Italian teams to do well but they are still virtually semi-pro and lose all their best players to foreign teams.

exocet

What I fail to understand is how New Zealand manage to maintain such a consistently high standard. Even without Super Rugby, they'd still be just as good. I don't subscribe to the thinking that the NH have to play the SH in order for us to improve. Why can't improve without that? If the fans can see that the skill levels are lower in NH, surely the coaches can see it as well. What is it about the NZ system that enables them to deliver such a high quantity of quality players and why can't the NH do the same?

lloyd

Virtually Every boy in NZ plays rugby, they throw a rugby ball around at lunch time rather than kick a ball, Rugby is the biggest cultural aspect of NZ. If you don't play rugby you are seen as a bit of a sissy. Success breeds success, it's a vicious cycle. There is competition to make the team at every level, which in turn breeds success. The white kids grow up playing against Maori boys, who generally develop quicker therefore are faster, stronger etc which makes them need to develop other ways of beating their man. It's not one thing, it's everything they have in place which works. The issue with Wales (possibly other NH teams) at the moment is that we have prioritised physical attributes above skill, this is something that had to happen to a certain extent-we were getting steam rollered 15 years ago think England put 50/60 on us a few times. So we have physical athletes who can match and beat teams for physicality but haven't got the skill level. We have a couple of players in the Wales team who didn't play rugby as kids. Top that off with the fact that there isn't any competition for places in any real terms and you get a complacency which you wouldn't see in NZ. Ian Evans is an example of this-one extremely talented lad, should have been a 100 capper and multiple Test lion but a terrible attitude which cost him (injuries later on didn't help). There's many stories about Welsh teams stinking of booze on match day, even into the early 2000's which is terrible, we've only been truly professional for 10 or so years, it's no surprise we've improved tenfold in that time.

exocet

I agree with everything that you've stated there lloyd. The comments about Wales are very apt. Boozing was still a large part of playing culture in early to mid 2000's.
However there is no reason why the English club setup should not be capable of matching New Zealand. Football is a huge distraction but money is attracting athletic players into the game. I can't accept that the standards won't improve unless we play the SH sides more often ...we play them too often as it is in my opinion. Australia managed to compete with NZ before the introduction of the Super franchises.
I do fear for Wales and Scotland though, the Pro 12 sides just aren't very good. The crowds are very low and the money must be thin on the ground. I can't see how the European competitions / leagues can increase in size / scope with so little cash within the Celtic nations. I'm pretty sure that the English / French organisations are not going to be particularly benevolent towards us "for the greater good of the game" - we've seen their recent actions with respect to attitudes on financial control / distribution of revenues. It does concern me as to what the future holds.

lloyd

Wales are basically fucked at club/regional level unless we get a European super league competition, or the WRU fund the regions better-basically hand outs for player wages. Again it's a vicious cycle-have shit teams, and a shit league, no one wants to go watch them, which means it's a shit team, shit league etc. Kids in Swansea (and Cardiff up until a few seasons ago) could choose between a Saturday watching football, full stadiums, premier league games or a half empty stadium for rugby with few of Wales best players playing and even less if there was an international window. Wales have overacheived massively since 2005 considering our resources. England can and have match NZ they've won the WC had the best team in the world for what, 4 years? Beat NZ in NZ and they beat them at Twickenham in recent times. England have been shit for the last 10 years because they insisted on English coaches, had they got someone qualified in they'd have have been fine. Foreign players in key positions probably havent helped England or France in recent seasons too. The thing with NZ is that they've been the best team in the world for 130 years, they're a freak of nature. They'll never be pushed off the top. Teams such as England, Australia and SA will have moments when they get a batch of talent coming through or genius coaching set up that will topple NZ for a match/tournament/season but NZ will always be the benchmark. Australia are a nation of sporting people, it's their culture and the weather there certainly helps with that, every Aussie I've ever met will always be up for a kick of a footy down the park or to do something outdoorsy, I'm sure there are fat lazy ones that don't like sport too but I've not met any. SA are of Dutch descent and genetically produce tall big guys, that and the fact that they have all been fed on a diet of 30lbs of red meat a day has produced some monstrous specimens, they will always have a chance in games because of their physicality. Some kind of Euro league will happen eventually, but the NH are constantly shown up as behind the times.

scrumhalf

http://thechronicleherald.ca/sports/1352014-former-canadian-rugby-standout-norman-hadley-dies-at-age-51

Best story about the big man: Travelling to work on the tube one day there were some yobs giving a woman a bit of grief. As the doors opened at the next station Norm put his newspaper down, got up, grabbed one in each hand and chucked them out of the carriage. As the applause rang out he just sat back down and picked up his newspaper.

RIP Big Norm.