The Rugby Union Thread

kjdowd

koneguitarist said:

@kjdowd to a team ranked 13 places below them, with England the richest rugby nation in the world at home, you could say the Italians did well and England were poor. Ireland put 60points plus on them in Italy. 
But at the end of the day, all England needed was a bonus point win which they got. But if they lose to Ireland with Ireland's points and bonus points they have picked up it could be decisive, so Eddie Jones is rightly pissed off and you can say England should have done better. 
And before you say it, Wales were rubbish I know, and we have no excuses, Scotland were just better than us. 

No I get that and entirely agree. In relative terms I get that Italy did well and England were poor and don't disagree. We were lucky in our first 2 games as well. I just find it funny that the absolute measures put together by the media (player scores and so on) are so far out of whack with the only absolute score that really matters, the score...

For the record, I'm very nervous about Scotland and Ireland. Both could very easily beat us unless we up our game significantly. Lots of key performers are very out of sorts and the slow starts are going to tell at some point.

kjdowd

On the Wales point, a shake up of the coaching staff is so far overdue it's ridiculous. I think the Welsh players are being let down by some tired ideas - it's not like the individual talent is lacking.

exocet

kjdowd said

koneguitarist said:

@kjdowd to a team ranked 13 places below them, with England the richest rugby nation in the world at home, you could say the Italians did well and England were poor. Ireland put 60points plus on them in Italy. 
But at the end of the day, all England needed was a bonus point win which they got. But if they lose to Ireland with Ireland's points and bonus points they have picked up it could be decisive, so Eddie Jones is rightly pissed off and you can say England should have done better. 
And before you say it, Wales were rubbish I know, and we have no excuses, Scotland were just better than us. 

No I get that and entirely agree. In relative terms I get that Italy did well and England were poor and don't disagree. We were lucky in our first 2 games as well. I just find it funny that the absolute measures put together by the media (player scores and so on) are so far out of whack with the only absolute score that really matters, the score...

For the record, I'm very nervous about Scotland and Ireland. Both could very easily beat us unless we up our game significantly. Lots of key performers are very out of sorts and the slow starts are going to tell at some point.

That's the nature of the media. They overreact in either direction. England's recent run under EJ has been blown out of all proportion - likewise EJ himself has been hailed as a messiah figure. When things don't according to plan against "the weakest opposition in the 6N", with no cricket score produced, the press go the other way. Matt Dawson practically exploded with indignstion on twitter yesterday...most amusing. 

Still, another win in the bag but in my view Ireland in Dublin will be a huge ask.

With 3 games down, I ask the question as to whether France have actually improved? 1st game up v England, I thought that they'd found something. Now I'm really not convinced. Sure they've got some bulk and power but it doesn't integrate with the speed and flair and by 50 mins, they are blowing very hard. Ireland are finding form again, Sexton was very impressive on Saturday. Scotland have really come on, delivering at a high level late on in matches. Wales......erratic at best, but with real deep rooted issues that wont go away before 2019 WC. England? The jury's out for me. A GS victory in Dublin is required to remove any doubts....although I'll concede that their not playing their best team right now.

digitalscream

koneguitarist said:

...with England the richest rugby nation in the world at home...

Ah, yes. I forgot that we divide all teams' points by the amount of money the country's union has.

::rolleyes::

Gassage

Word of advice...

On the floor closes the door; stay on your feet to compete.

As luck would have it, Conor has been a guest on my column a dozen times- I know this was a reaction to JP DOyle's officiating in the first game.

COS sent me this via text last night:

Nearly did it. All legal unlike when jp Doyle killed us in game one. He killed us mentally but we are back now but will never forgive jp for what he did

koneguitarist

kjdowd said:

On the Wales point, a shake up of the coaching staff is so far overdue it's ridiculous. I think the Welsh players are being let down by some tired ideas - it's not like the individual talent is lacking.

I have been advocating changing Howley McBryde and Edwards for a while. Edwards doesn't seem to understand the RL influence is past its sell by date and now it's all about the attacking elements. McBryde was always useless as a player and coach. Howley great player but not a coach. When he was at Cardiff the skills were going downhill, and ever since he has taken over Wales backs they have relied on power saight up through middle. 
We are lucky there are still a couple of instinctive players still in Team like Liam Williams and Tipuric who read the game so we still have flashes of skill, but players like Roberts, North, Jon Davies, Cuthbert should not be near the team. 
To Howley it's all about his plan, and if the players stick to his plan and execute his plan, and the opposition don't attempt to upset his plan then they will win! 
Some of them act like if they attempt something they will get dropped and that fear is in the team, they are playing as individuals not a team. 
I would love to see Dai Young in charge of forwards and Paul Turner in charge of the backs, leave Gatland in place but let's get some fresh coaching in and send Howley and co out to regions or England!

Gassage

On another topic, rumours abounding Parisse talking to Saracens.

Would be a fine swansong for probably the most gifted player of my lifetime. Genius.

exocet

koneguitarist said:mi

kjdowd said:

On the Wales point, a shake up of the coaching staff is so far overdue it's ridiculous. I think the Welsh players are being let down by some tired ideas - it's not like the individual talent is lacking.

I have been advocating changing Howley McBryde and Edwards for a while. Edwards doesn't seem to understand the RL influence is past its sell by date and now it's all about the attacking elements. McBryde was always useless as a player and coach. Howley great player but not a coach. When he was at Cardiff the skills were going downhill, and ever since he has taken over Wales backs they have relied on power saight up through middle. 
We are lucky there are still a couple of instinctive players still in Team like Liam Williams and Tipuric who read the game so we still have flashes of skill, but players like Roberts, North, Jon Davies, Cuthbert should not be near the team. 
To Howley it's all about his plan, and if the players stick to his plan and execute his plan, and the opposition don't attempt to upset his plan then they will win! 
Some of them act like if they attempt something they will get dropped and that fear is in the team, they are playing as individuals not a team. 
I would love to see Dai Young in charge of forwards and Paul Turner in charge of the backs, leave Gatland in place but let's get some fresh coaching in and send Howley and co out to regions or England!

Didn't realise Paul Turner was still involved in the game. Where is he? He was certainly one of the most skilled OHs that Wales have ever had.....but of course he was only given 2 games or something like that. He certainly appeared to do well in coaching but I've completely lost touch with where he is now. 

hywelg

kjdowd said:

On the Wales point, a shake up of the coaching staff is so far overdue it's ridiculous. I think the Welsh players are being let down by some tired ideas - it's not like the individual talent is lacking.

Sacrilege I know, but I'm rather hoping we lose the final matches in the vain hope that it will provoke a change to the coaching staff

exocet

hywelg said:

kjdowd said:

On the Wales point, a shake up of the coaching staff is so far overdue it's ridiculous. I think the Welsh players are being let down by some tired ideas - it's not like the individual talent is lacking.

Sacrilege I know, but I'm rather hoping we lose the final matches in the vain hope that it will provoke a change to the coaching staff

But will it? The elephant in the room is that the WRU have no money to spare and yet they have stupidly agreed to long contracts on all of the key individuals who are being implicated. It was madness to extend Gatlands contract just before last WC through to 2019 WC. He in turn agreed to the extension of Howley, McBryde, Edwards and Jenkins. The only reason the WRU are happy for Gatland to take 12 months off on Lions duty is because they're not paying his wages for the duration. 

digitalscream

I've got to say, I'm pretty disappointed with Eddie Jones' comments - "It's not rugby" etc. Pretty pathetic, and sad to watch. He was out-thought, and so were his players. If Italy had a backup plan for when England finally cottoned on, they would've had a good shout of winning the match.

fields5069

I enjoyed the Italy / England spectacle. I guffawed when England looked lost and stuck their hands up like the spod at the front of the class. I've had people telling me it's just not rugby, like there are certain rules you CAN stretch and those you CAN'T. So you CAN clear the ruck like a startled rhinoceros to leave nice gap over the top, you can sneakily grab onto someone's leg and keep them in the ruck to create a hole, but god forbid you should do something so inventive that the opposite team look a bit thick.

I'm Welsh though, so enough of that. As average as Wales have been so far, they don't help themselves if they totally misread the contest and opt for kicks to the corner instead of a stab at 3 points. 16-6 became 13-9, it could have changed the game although probably unlikely.

exocet

digitalscream said:

I've got to say, I'm pretty disappointed with Eddie Jones' comments - "It's not rugby" etc. Pretty pathetic, and sad to watch. He was out-thought, and so were his players. If Italy had a backup plan for when England finally cottoned on, they would've had a good shout of winning the match.

He realised that his team were being "undone" by a Kiwis tactics (Wayne Smith) - albeit implemented very well by an Irishman...enough to make any Aussie apoplectic. 

It was very smart play by Italy and some of the barbed comments that I have been reading by disgruntled England "fans" have been quite dispiriting (Italy not worthy of 6N, why didn't they simply roll over and accept a 100 point spanking etc etc).

As it appears that this tactic originated in NZ, it reminds me about a comment that a mate of mine made  around 15 years ago when Mike Ruddock was in charge of Wales. Mike had consulted with Graham Henry / Steve Hansen -  Henry was really hot on players knowing the rules inside out (it didn't work for Wales, but his point was that every Kiwi player knew exactly how far to push things in any situation, McCaw was cited as being particularly knowledgeable even then,). Sometimes, that knowledge is all it takes to win a match.

kjdowd

Yes some of the comments have been a bit depressing. It was smart thinking from Italy, and it's always good to see something different. it's not going to ruin the sport and ridiculous to suggest it could. Dawson's comments particularly brainless. He tweeted something about it causing confusion in club and youth training sessions ('can we do what italy did, sir?')

Or, it might encourage youngsters to be more aware of the laws and spot opportunities to be more aggressive in defence. 

As a mainstream tactic it won't work. Too easy to counter with the pick and go and leaves the defence down on numbers and disorganised. As a heads up reaction to a situation? Different story. For example, it could be a standard tactic to counter a defensive line out and clearing of the lines after 2nd ruck...

England even had a go at it themselves in the 2nd half. 

exocet

kjdowd said:

Yes some of the comments have been a bit depressing. It was smart thinking from Italy, and it's always good to see something different. it's not going to ruin the sport and ridiculous to suggest it could. Dawson's comments particularly brainless. He tweeted something about it causing confusion in club and youth training sessions ('can we do what italy did, sir?')

Or, it might encourage youngsters to be more aware of the laws and spot opportunities to be more aggressive in defence. 

As a mainstream tactic it won't work. Too easy to counter with the pick and go and leaves the defence down on numbers and disorganised. As a heads up reaction to a situation? Different story. For example, it could be a standard tactic to counter a defensive line out and clearing of the lines after 2nd ruck...

England even had a go at it themselves in the 2nd half. 

I chucked at Dawsons "explosion". There were a few ex- England players putting him straight on the matter. Never quite sure with Dawson whether he's being serious or simply generating a "shit storm" to further his own "Brand".....much like Healey.

Gassage

Well, here's my piece for Rugby Unplugged going up in an hour; it's a pun merchant's delight.....:

No-one can decry the acumen, intellect and execution of the Italian side, led by the tactical minx himself, Conor O’Shea, as they frustrated England’s attacking ambition despite eventually losing by 36-15.

Eddie Jones's charges stuttered and futtered their way through the first half allowing Italy's intensity and keen rugby intellect to throw them off their game, and after Giovanbattista Venditti scored just before halftime it looked as though Italy were about to claim their second big scalp under Conor O'Shea after beating South Africa in November.

But England eventually learned to counter the innovative Italians and late scores by Ben Te’o, Elliot Daly and Jack Nowell (2) gave a scoreline that possibly flattered the hosts.

The game was most notable for Italy’s innovative decision to remove England’s power rucking out of the contest by literally refusing to create rucks.

A ruck is a phase of play where one or more players from each team, who are on their feet, in physical contact, close around the ball on the ground, and once open play has ended. Bodies on the floor are not considered to be part of that ruck and it was this specific nuance that created mayhem in English thinking.

Italy threw so many people into England’s territory, closing off the pass, that if the game had been played in Chicago, you could bet your bottom dollar the Trump Administration would be ringing their bricklayers to build a wall to fend off the itinerate Italian immigrants.

In fact, such were the number of blue shirts braving enemy land that Italy’s wartime army could have learned a lot from that tactics of their Irish coach.

Good sides react to what is in front of them. And here’s the key; once the ruck was removed there was literally nothing in front of the English tackled players, and it took Eddie’s charges 40 minutes to work out the route to success was right through the middle of that non-ruck.

Despite the strangulation of the contact area, Italy managed some seriously impressive attacking plays, with Michelle Campagnaro scoring a memorable Twickenham try, as he bashed through George Ford and Mike Brown’s feeble attempts, to run 30 metres for a magnificent score just after half time.

As ever Sergio Parisse’s beacon shone brightest of all and and his ability to empower others but intervening with his unmatched skillset when needed is getting better with every game under O’Shea. Too many times do the Azzurri shrug their shoulders and think “leave it to Sergio” yet under the new regime, every player is equal and it’s clear Parisse is actively looking to bring his lesser talented team-mates into his elevated world of unique rugby geniu

What of England? Well, here’s the rub; good sides need to face every test, and despite the uniformed and quite vitriolic fan’s cries of ‘offside’ and ‘that’s not rugby’ that bounced around the concrete pillars of Twickenham, England finally coped with the Italian impudence.

The bench, again, was key. Jack Nowell and Jamie George’s incursions into midfield and pace in the closing stages crucified the doughty visitors and allowed Ben Te’o and Elliot Daly to cross the line, with Nowell himself adding a cheeky brace with his low centre of gravity and speed of thought.

Maro Itoje too, now officially a five and a half, grew into his role with crucial turnovers at ruck, non-ruck and lineout.

Once the penny finally dropped (with James Haskell, Dylan Hartley and Maro Itoje asking for so many clarifications of law they might consider a role in a Parliamentary Select Committee), then England’s service was resumed almost to normal. But O’Shea, Brendon Venter and Mike Catt’s thinking have done something very special; they’ve inspired debate, outrage and admiration in equal measures from all concerned and for that, they should be applauded.

It is also worth singling out the real Man of the Match, referee Romain Poite, a former detective, who drew deeply into his sleuthing expertise to decipher Italy’s approach.

His reffing remained calm, accurate and suitably unflappable, even outdoing Nigel Owen’s comedic repertoire when he turned to the England flanker James Haskell and told him “I’m not your coach, I’m the ref!” In a game of rare legal uncertainty, the big cheese from Rochefort was magnificent.

In the final analysis, this was a shock tactic and one that O’Shea may keep in his locker for another occasion. Sides will know how to combat it now, so relying upon it as a gameplan is facile. Eddie Jones will be angry on one hand, but whimsically respectful on the other.

One wonders now how World Rugby will react, but more importantly, how the Championship leaders will recalibrate their approach when they take on a rampant Scotland in a fortnight’s time.

It will be a thriller.

TheBigDipper

And thats the thing. It's not a winning strategy because (assuming you have a brain) there's a simple response that hurts you. Once or twice, why not? All game? Only if you want to lose or have something else up your sleeve.

I'm English, but I enjoyed seeing the England team struggle to understand what was going on. They should be a bit ashamed of themselves that it took them so long.

Rocker

digitalscream said:

Rocker said:

What has gone wrong with the game of Rugby? I actually switched off the TV today during the England -v- Italy match. It was so boring. The game is dying on it's feet, all bash and no subtlety. Power power and more power. Who is responsible for this?

That was your mistake. Watch the second half, totally different game; there was barely any physicality at all, it was all about the speed and skills.




Pity, if I had known before I switched off...

mattdavis

I thought it was fascinating watching this non-rucking for about 20 minutes - then it just became ridiculous. Watching the Italians just standing off Danny Care, waving their arms like a game of netball, just began to grate. They should have come out 2nd half and played conventionally but a massively high tempo, once they'd set up the expectation of how they would play from the first half - then I think they'd have had a better chance...
Ps @Gassage - I do like the big cheese from Rochefort line :-)

koneguitarist

digitalscream said:

koneguitarist said:

...with England the richest rugby nation in the world at home...

Ah, yes. I forgot that we divide all teams' points by the amount of money the country's union has.

::rolleyes::

No it's not just about the money, point was England has every advantage going over the Italians, huge player base, that's what I meant by richest, but they are the richest anyway. 
But their strength in depth is huge, I know when Wales lose  few players we struggle badly as do Scotland as we have fewer quality players, common sense really. 
So with every advantage, plus playing at home, the only way to level playing field would be to restrict subs to maybe 2-3 specialist players only, like they used to. 
Now you can have a team put their best ( in some cases their only decent props on, they work incredibly hard, to get on top of opposite numbers, then when they do the whole front row changes. 
Its one of the reasons defences are so good these days, as soon as you are knackered your off and replaced, you don't get the backs up against tired old props and 2nd rows at end of game as they have been replaced. Great when you have massive strength in depth, but not so great for teams with a smaller player pool. 
Obviously that ain't gonna happen, but I fail to see benefits to the game with 8 subs ready to come on, why not 9-10-11 maybe have a whole team on bench so game can be even faster? 
Anybody got any thoughts on this?