The Rugby Union Thread

Gassage

Payne Red

Very tough call.

You can't or shouldn't penalise on outcome. Equally, Payne needs to be aware, so does Goode. Very very marginal red or yellow.

Good analogy- Warburton's world cup red- no malice there, accident, but technically red. Same here. Three offences in truth- taking man out, tackling in airl, tip tackle. It was without doubt reckless.

On balance, marginal red in my books but a close call.

I hope Payne is not penalised by a further ban. No malice, unfortunate rather than deliberate, but for me it's pro players, showcase that was a bad one, not helped by the fact Goodey got very good height on his jump, which accentuated the incident..

Gassage

Also, refs instructed now to protect player in air.

I emailed 2 refs- both pretty much said the same as I did above- reckless, no intent, marginal red, no ban.

imalone

Gassage said:

Payne Red

Very tough call.

You can't or shouldn't penalise on outcome. Equally, Payne needs to be aware, so does Goode. Very very marginal red or yellow.

Good analogy- Warburton's world cup red- no malice there, accident, but technically red. Same here. Three offences in truth- taking man out, tackling in airl, tip tackle. It was without doubt reckless.

Warbuton's was exactly the one that came to mind, though since he was tackling he had more of a responsibility to take to bring the man down safely (can't even remember who it was now), bit of a stretch to call Saturday's collision a tackle. I suppose if that's the consensus given the advice I can accept it, though it did seem the referee made his decision partly on the outcome on the day (otherwise that red could have been awarded much sooner).

Gassage

OK- at lap top now...from a ref mate of mine below-......

To put this in prospective - a kick down town, high and into the opposition territory. Not sure if done by Payne or not but irrelevant. Any chaser would have a look to see where the ball was going and what defenders were around. Then, their focus would have gone back to the ball - something which I'm sure Payne will reply upon at his hearing.

As Payne wants to get the ball he is looking all the way where the ball is and the clip I have seen supports this. Now, just before contact is where it becomes interesting from an academic POV at least and probably a defence POV. Payne's arms go out - as if to catch or as if to tackle? Does he know/suspect that a defender would also contest for the ball or is he reckless as to that thought? Better worded - he know a defender would be there or, a reasonable rugby would have expected a defender to be there and he continued with his actions regardless.

Did Payne ever jump for the ball? Clear and obvious, no. Why?

Did he then make contact with Goode and send him clattering to the ground?

I fail to see how all of that could not lead to a red. At his hearing I expect great reliance upon lack of intention, etc. to be made but he knew what he was doing or at best was reckless as to the consequences.

tbm

Gassage said:

Better worded - he know a defender would be there or, a reasonable rugby would have expected a defender to be there and he continued with his actions regardless.

This is a really good point. He had to reasonably expect that an opposing player would contest the ball, but he himself didn't jump thereby increasing the chances of taking a player out in the air.

@Gasage -  I gave you a wisdom there, but it's actually for your ref pal. Can you pass it on please? k thx bye!

imalone

I'm probably arguing from a very Ulster point of view, so you mightn't want to spend too much time constructing logical counterarguments, but your mate has one thing at least very wrong - it was an ulster kick, Payne was under it all the way in, which could well be why he doesn't jump:

(Edit, crazy formatting)

Gassage

@imalone- sorry- Payne, not Goode.

This below from a current premiership ref via text

Red had to be reckless by Payne what he was looking at is irrelevant if he'd jumped for the ball he had a defence ref had no option .  By the way intent doesn't come into it as the law doesn't concern itself with intent

imalone

Have to admit I'm surprised by that, IRB 10.2 on unfair play specifies the sanctions for intentional offending, all the mandatory cards are added by later memos and clarifications. I'm not trying to be pedantic, this is obviously an experienced professional referee writing in a space limited text message whereas I'm an amateur player and fan, he could well mean "in this case doesn't concern itself with intent" and there's some guidance or clarification that applies to tackling in the air, but I haven't been able to find it. The 2011 memo on dangerous tackles specifies some things for which red or yellow should be seriously considered, the 2009 mandates red for spear and lifting+dropping. It is of course always considered highly dangerous and if done intentionally really asking for a send off.
All this takes it as given that it was a tackle anyway, which is something else I'm not clear on.
Anyway, well out of my depth looking up IRB memos, so not much point arguing with multiple professional opinions.

Gassage

@imalone

Intentional offending and intent are two seprate things- viz: a player intentionally offending, such as sealing off under posts, then there's a sanction.

Interesting question, so I've sent it to David Rose, premiership ref, for you.

Gassage

Response from Rosey:

The difference is if you stamp, handle in ruck or punch that's intent and I can see it. In Payne and as an example I don't have to judge what you intended to do you, so he could argue I never intended to hurt etc that's not what the ref has to judge

imalone

Well, thanks for checking. Now, you'll have to excuse me, this Justice for Jared banner isn't going to make itself.... 

Gassage

No worries. As I say my personal view is it was a very marginal red- a good parallel was the Tuilagi/Cueto challenge which got Moody sent off for punching. Pretty similar. Both reds, although in the Tuilagi incident punches were thrown afterwards

tbm

Payne gets two weeks. Seems about fair.

Gassage

Spot on IMO.

I was speaking to the walking (limping) legend HRH Mr Hill earlier today and he said that in his view a yellow by letter of the law, but that he totally understood the red as players in air need protection.

Now then you lot, I'm off on MCC cricket tour tomorrow......

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaay!!!!!!

koneguitarist

Can`t say I would have agreed with a yellow. Too often a yellow is a cop out by ref to allow citing officer to do his dirty work.

The Yellow was not brought in for foul play but for repeat infringements. To help speed up the game, Foul play was always a penalty or a red. To me the red was right by letter of the law same as Warburton in RWC, Warburton's was dealt to be harsh more down to other refs giving yellow for similar offences, and Rolland applied the law.

imalone

Warburton's was actually a bit different, in that it was a different foul for which there's a specific recommendation of a red (which had been reiterated not long before). The reckless play argument rests on Payne reasonably expecting there should be a defender there jumping for the ball, and is only a red judged by severity. The thing that's the same is intent isn't relevant for these on the field.
Anyway, probably just as well we're out of it given the list of injuries after that match.

koneguitarist

To me Warburton intent was to stop player with tackle, but forgetting the tackle intent, it's quite clear, that too many had been let off for tip tackles with yellows, which made Warburton's seem harsh.

Payne, to me was reckless and should have known better, yet I still think it's a harsh call in context with the game. All red cards to be given, should be quickly checked by ref on big screen so he can give a more balanced view, Ie, straight red, yellow with caution, or accidental and a penalty given.

A high tackle can be given for a tackler coming in with his arm at waist height, yet attacker can often duck into tackle and get caught high resulting in a card. 

I don't like to see automatic red cards given for a set offence, and ref must be able to view the offence not in immediate heat of moment but with TMO assistance.

Gassage

koneguitarist said:

Can`t say I would have agreed with a yellow. Too often a yellow is a cop out by ref to allow citing officer to do his dirty work.

The Yellow was not brought in for foul play but for repeat infringements. To help speed up the game, Foul play was always a penalty or a red. To me the red was right by letter of the law same as Warburton in RWC, Warburton's was dealt to be harsh more down to other refs giving yellow for similar offences, and Rolland applied the law.

@koneguitarist

I remember Warby's card well as I was on MCC tour and Alan Lewis (Irish ref and Ireland's msst capped cricketer at that time) was skippering the tour. We watched it in a bar and the moment Warby made the tackle, Lewie said straight red. Seemingly the IRB had absolutely instructed the refs catagorically to ping that.

For my money, that cost France the final as Rolly's interpretation of the contact area is different to CJ, who will encourage technical defence which suited the AB's. France moaned at the time that Rolly was bi-lingual and should have had the final, but I disagreed on 2 counts- 1) Rolly is HALF French- that's a fact that people forget and should preclude him from reffing France IMO. 2) It says that the language of reffing is English; which also applies in SA where a ref SHOULD ref in English despite Afrikaans being the first lang of all. France domestically is different.

koneguitarist

Trouble we have with refs instructions especially when Paddy (I am gonna make sure All Blacks are gonna win) Obrien was in charge is that they are often a knee jerk reaction to a high profile incident.

The laws are there for all to see and play to, refs should not have their interpretation but enforce the law, end of story.

A lot of people argued with regard to Warburton, that it was a yellow not  red. Point is he dropped player. whether it was because he started to lose his footing , off balance whatever, he dropped player from a height onto his upper back first. So red was the card, irrespective whether its in first or last minute of the match. That should not come into it. What upset me was not the card itself, but the inconsistency of the reffing throughout the games.

The ref who sent Payne off was same guy who sent the Scottish 15 off against Wales during six nations, correct decision, did it affect match, undoubtedly, but that should not be a concern for ref in decision making.

snakemanStoo

Just watched the Bath/Gloucester match.

Well, it was ... a bit spicy.

5 yellows, 2 reds