The Rugby Union Thread

sev112

Hmmmm. Interesting Ireland shirt - black with dayglo yellow smudges 

must be really good to make your international debut in that !

drofluf

sev112 said:

Hmmmm. Interesting Ireland shirt - black with dayglo yellow smudges 

must be really good to make your international debut in that !

What channel is it on please? Doesn’t seem to be on Prime. 

exocet

Channel 4.

drofluf

exocet said:

Channel 4.

Thanks didn’t think to look somewhere obvious!

koneguitarist

Wales won, not many positives to say. 

Barnes missed a couple of bits of foul play which could see North and Liam Williams out for bans till 6 nations. North being held seems to knee Italian in face? 

But Liam Williams flying into ruck elbows Italian Center in face. 

Before the autumn series, thought Pivac was taking a lot of unwarranted criticism with injuries and new caps, Wales was hardly gonna set the world alight. But watching today I can honestly say I have no idea what tactics they were trying. Looked like a bunch of club players that have never played together. Some of them did well but some didn’t. 

sev112

Disappointing Wales overall, didn’t see the Nirth one, but the Williams one seemed black and white 

beginning to like Sheedy.  scrum half change seemed to turn the game to Wales

hywelg

koneguitarist said:

Wales won, not many positives to say. 

Faletaus return to form is one of them. Tipuric the other. Not much else to be positive about. I reckon Faletau might just have played his way back into Lions contention. Alun Wyn is not long in the job I fear. Front row suspect. Still no ideas about opening gaps in a defence. 

p90fool

sev112 said:

 scrum half change seemed to turn the game to Wales

Scrum half change always turns the game for Wales, but yes, more so than usual this time.

It doesn't seem to matter who's picked to start at scrum half, distribution is often painfully, shout-at-the-telly slow, then when they're substituted the guy who's been watching the dithering from the stand picks the pace up. 

It seems you can pick any two players one week then invert them the following week and the same thing will happen, it's bizarre. 

scrumhalf

"What are we doing today Eddie?"

"Hoof it".

"But what about..."

"Hoof it"

"But..."

"HOOF IT".

exocet

hywelg said:

koneguitarist said:

Wales won, not many positives to say. 

Faletaus return to form is one of them. Tipuric the other. Not much else to be positive about. I reckon Faletau might just have played his way back into Lions contention. Alun Wyn is not long in the job I fear. Front row suspect. Still no ideas about opening gaps in a defence. 

I think the line out is a bigger problem than front row. When Francis and Wyn Jones have propped, we've been fairly solid - the issue there is that the other props are just not up to the job. When it comes to the line out, it doesn't matter who has played, we've been utter rubbish. Ken Owens sorely missed...but even he is not great at the line out.

koneguitarist

exocet said:

hywelg said:

koneguitarist said:

Wales won, not many positives to say. 

Faletaus return to form is one of them. Tipuric the other. Not much else to be positive about. I reckon Faletau might just have played his way back into Lions contention. Alun Wyn is not long in the job I fear. Front row suspect. Still no ideas about opening gaps in a defence. 

I think the line out is a bigger problem than front row. When Francis and Wyn Jones have propped, we've been fairly solid - the issue there is that the other props are just not up to the job. When it comes to the line out, it doesn't matter who has played, we've been utter rubbish. Ken Owens sorely missed...but even he is not great at the line out.

Why is this such an issue, it’s not new, no coach has addressed it.

scrumhalf

Blimey.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/08/steve-thompson-former-rugby-union-players-dementia-landmark-legal-case

crunchman

Just read that.  Not good.

I like American Football, and this has been a big issue there.  I saw a very similar article about Jim McMahon (quaterback of the 1985 Chicago Bears) a few years ago.  He was in his 50s and couldn't rememember his way home if he went out for a walk.

I always thought that rugby wasn't so bad, as the helmets in American Football mean people are more willing to lead with their heads.

Thinking about it, it's probably not as bad as American Football used to be:

https://www.si.com/college/2020/10/07/usc-and-its-dying-linebackers

I don't see that level of attrition in rugby - especially when you think that some of those USC Linebackers finished playing at the age of 22, and never played professionally.

The problem might not be quite as bad in rugby, but it's still a huge problem that needs addressing.  There is probably more awareness of it now, and less playing on after a bang on the head, which will help, but that's not enough.

The new scrum rules where you don't have the huge hit will probably help as well for front row forwards.

They are going to need to do more going forwards.  I think they are going to need to change the game to get more time in play so the players have to have more cardio fitness and less bulk.  They probably need to reduce the number of substitutions allowed.  Maybe limit it to 3, so you have to save them for injuries, rather than automatically substitute most of the forwards.

barnstorm

It's really sad. I wish they'd make major changes now and be done with it instead of fiddling at the edges while brains get scrambled and the sport gets slated.

Scrums have become pointless except as a way of tying up eight opposition players and could be replaced by line-outs (where the ball still goes in straight at least some of the time…).

I'd more or less scrap the ruck, too, by making the tackler (having released and got back up) the only person allowed to compete at the breakdown.

The contact point for tackles wants to be midriff or below to stop upright tackles and car-crash two-man hits, and I'd be in favour of straight yellows for obvious infractions even if innocuous, because it's the only way players will take it seriously.

I accept I'm at one extreme of a spectrum on the issue!

rsvmark

Happening in football too, not the legal case, but a growing body of opinion about heading the ball. 

crunchman

barnstorm said:

It's really sad. I wish they'd make major changes now and be done with it instead of fiddling at the edges while brains get scrambled and the sport gets slated.

Scrums have become pointless except as a way of tying up eight opposition players and could be replaced by line-outs (where the ball still goes in straight at least some of the time…).

I'd more or less scrap the ruck, too, by making the tackler (having released and got back up) the only person allowed to compete at the breakdown.

The contact point for tackles wants to be midriff or below to stop upright tackles and car-crash two-man hits, and I'd be in favour of straight yellows for obvious infractions even if innocuous, because it's the only way players will take it seriously.

I accept I'm at one extreme of a spectrum on the issue!

You have to make rules that work at all levels of the game.  Ditching scrums isn't an option.  They have done away with the "hit" now.  That will probably help.  They need to force scrum halves to put it in straight and make it a contest for the ball.  Turning the scrums into Rugby League style scrums is not the way to go.

Limiting training would help.  One of the articles today quoted one of the players involved saying they were involved in 100 live scrums in a training session when the coach wasn't happy.  One thing that has come out of this, and the issues with heading in football, is that a lot of the damage is done in training.  One thing the NFL has done has limited full contact training sessions.  I think they are only allowed one full training session in pads per week, or thereabouts.

This does seem to have become much worse in the professional era, with much more intense training, and much bigger players.  You could limit the number of full contact training sessions.  For the bigger players, limiting substitutions would help.  If front row forwards knew they had to play the full 80 minutes, there would have to be more emphasis on cardio and endurance, and the bulk would decrease.  They also need to try to keep the game moving and the ball in play more.

If you wanted to get really radical, reduce the number of players on the pitch.  There would be more space, and speed/agility would become more important than bulk and crash balls.

The game does need tweaking somehow.  The kick tennis we have endured the last few weeks is not good.

VimFuego

yup, making more space on the pitch will certainly help, either bigger pitches or fewer players, you'd see a lot more passing before contact and a lot fewer gang tackles. One suggestion I heard a few years back from (I think he was the coach of one of the pacific islands, English guy but working over there) was to enforce the rules around the ruck better, make players keep their heads above their hips, he said it would significantly reduce the amount of force that is needed to both secure the ruck but also to clear it out.
Sadly, this has been on the cards for a while. There was a case a few years back from Ireland of a semi pro player (I think he was a doctor in real life) who had this, that's when I knew the game was in trouble. This is truly awful for the players and their families, beyond tragic.

Rocker

crunchman said:

Just read that.  Not good.

The game has been heading down the tubes in the past number of years.  'Taking it into contact' is what the players are trained to do.  This has made Rugby a dangerous game.  The hits are getting harder.  Guys are all bulked up.  Everyone seems afraid to speak out about the dangers.  A classic 'Kings Clothes' situation.  Someone high up in the game is going to have to point out that the King is naked.  Before it is too late.

scrumhalf

With all of the changes in recent years can you really say that the game is better than it was? Players seem to be playing the game with little regard for their own well-being.

I still see players flying into rucks and refs doing nothing, I thought this was supposed to be outlawed. Contact with a player's head is now punishable with a card, depending on the severity of the incident. Do we need there to be another type of card that gives a player ten minutes ikn the bin and then forces his substitution?

At its best it's a beautifuly game. At its worst we get oversized players bashing into each other, punctuated by scrumhalves at the end of a ten metre caterpillar hoofing the ball and other backs getting rid of it as soon as they can by hoofing for distance.

barnstorm

crunchman said:

barnstorm said:

It's really sad. I wish they'd make major changes now and be done with it instead of fiddling at the edges while brains get scrambled and the sport gets slated.

Scrums have become pointless except as a way of tying up eight opposition players and could be replaced by line-outs (where the ball still goes in straight at least some of the time…).

I'd more or less scrap the ruck, too, by making the tackler (having released and got back up) the only person allowed to compete at the breakdown.

The contact point for tackles wants to be midriff or below to stop upright tackles and car-crash two-man hits, and I'd be in favour of straight yellows for obvious infractions even if innocuous, because it's the only way players will take it seriously.

I accept I'm at one extreme of a spectrum on the issue!

You have to make rules that work at all levels of the game. Ditching scrums isn't an option. 

In a 'they'd never go for it' sense or in a 'scrums are a vital part of the game' sense? Agree with the former!

They've become so disruptive to the flow with all the resets; they result in penalties half the time slowing the game further; the reffing of them is confusing/maddening for spectators, commentators and players alike (I hate the modern 'painting a picture for the ref' aspect of the game); and even with the hit gone there's a non-trivial danger of neck/spinal injuries given how often the scrum collapses.

Just not sure what purpose they can really serve anymore, and if you get rid of them along with the serious punishment dished out at the breakdown, the game becomes faster, more accessible to new players and more acceptable to all the parents who currently think 'not my kids'. It's a pretty different game, though, for sure.

No objection to the idea of fewer players to open things up – especially since I see no need for a traditional front row! – but if teams were forced to defend differently and make low and largely one-up tackles, line breaks would be more frequent anyway.

I guess what I really want to see is a professional version of the running schoolboy rugby I remember, where everybody was moderately dedicated to defence at best!