The Rugby Union Thread

koneguitarist

digitalscream said:

koneguitarist said:

Do you think England need a captain who deserves to be on the field for his skills as a player? 

Without a doubt, because the captain is a player first and a captain second.

It's no secret that Eddie is totally wedded to the "Farrell being on the pitch" strategy, regardless of form. He's not the best fly half in the squad, he's not the best 12 in the squad, and he's not the best kicker in the squad. His distribution isn't great, enough of his tackles are off-target (being charitable) to make him a liability in defence, and he's petulant when the ref gives him instructions.

He just needs to be out of the squad.

I think it will make him a better player if he gets dropped. Maybe if he is loaned to a team in premiership and gets some time to work on his game devoid of captaincy, it could be the making of him. 

rsvmark

12 is a tough position to fill. Tuilagi, who I am no fan of, is injured but he is a wrecking ball at times. I feel for Ollie Lawrence who was dropped after getting no ball at all. England moved the ball more in the second half than they did in the previous 2 games. Who else night drop in? 

crunchman

koneguitarist said:

Do you think England need a captain who deserves to be on the field for his skills as a player? 

I wonder at Farrell as he is not best 10, as that’s Ford, he is certainly not a natural 12 so should he be on the field or is Eddie shoehorning him into the side just because he is captain? 

I personally think Slade should be captain for following reasons. 

1. He is a great player and deserves his spot in team.
 2. he is always incredibly calm and focussed no matter the score. 

3. With Eddie carrying a 6 /2 split on bench, most of the forwards will be replaced so has to be a back. Or your’e left with Itoje or Vunipola as forward options. 

Sam Warburton and Will Carling were chosen as young captains partially down to the way they conducted themselves. It’s not just about having the biggest or loudest guy as captain but best leader that is in team on merit not because he is captain. 

Stuart Hogg has improved since he became captain, I feel best player to be captain is from the backs as they have a more overall sense of the game, 
Thoughts?

I think it's better if the captain is a forward - which probably means Itoje.

exocet

crunchman said:

koneguitarist said:

Do you think England need a captain who deserves to be on the field for his skills as a player? 

I wonder at Farrell as he is not best 10, as that’s Ford, he is certainly not a natural 12 so should he be on the field or is Eddie shoehorning him into the side just because he is captain? 

I personally think Slade should be captain for following reasons. 

1. He is a great player and deserves his spot in team.
 2. he is always incredibly calm and focussed no matter the score. 

3. With Eddie carrying a 6 /2 split on bench, most of the forwards will be replaced so has to be a back. Or your’e left with Itoje or Vunipola as forward options. 

Sam Warburton and Will Carling were chosen as young captains partially down to the way they conducted themselves. It’s not just about having the biggest or loudest guy as captain but best leader that is in team on merit not because he is captain. 

Stuart Hogg has improved since he became captain, I feel best player to be captain is from the backs as they have a more overall sense of the game, 
Thoughts?

I think it's better if the captain is a forward - which probably means Itoje.

I agree about the best place for a captain is in the pack, but Itoje? No way, he doesn’t have the temperament to handle that sort of thing. Great player, a real physical presence and skilful with it when not stepping over the line but I just don’t think he’s got what it takes. 

Neill

rsvmark said:

12 is a tough position to fill. Tuilagi, who I am no fan of, is injured but he is a wrecking ball at times. I feel for Ollie Lawrence who was dropped after getting no ball at all. England moved the ball more in the second half than they did in the previous 2 games. Who else night drop in? 

I'd play Slade at 12 and put Daly at 13.  I honestly think Slade is better at 12 than 13,  Daly is not a natural 15 and currently England have more options for full back than they do at centre.  Ford - Slade - Daly with May and Watson on the wings - I don't know how you can argue with that unless you are determined for some reason to have Farrell in the team.  But he's not worth his place as captain, he demonstrated that very clearly on Saturday.   

crunchman

exocet said:

crunchman said:

koneguitarist said:

Do you think England need a captain who deserves to be on the field for his skills as a player? 

I wonder at Farrell as he is not best 10, as that’s Ford, he is certainly not a natural 12 so should he be on the field or is Eddie shoehorning him into the side just because he is captain? 

I personally think Slade should be captain for following reasons. 

1. He is a great player and deserves his spot in team.
 2. he is always incredibly calm and focussed no matter the score. 

3. With Eddie carrying a 6 /2 split on bench, most of the forwards will be replaced so has to be a back. Or your’e left with Itoje or Vunipola as forward options. 

Sam Warburton and Will Carling were chosen as young captains partially down to the way they conducted themselves. It’s not just about having the biggest or loudest guy as captain but best leader that is in team on merit not because he is captain. 

Stuart Hogg has improved since he became captain, I feel best player to be captain is from the backs as they have a more overall sense of the game, 
Thoughts?

I think it's better if the captain is a forward - which probably means Itoje.

I agree about the best place for a captain is in the pack, but Itoje? No way, he doesn’t have the temperament to handle that sort of thing. Great player, a real physical presence and skilful with it when not stepping over the line but I just don’t think he’s got what it takes. 

Who else is guaranteed a place?

The responsibility might be good for him.  I've heard him on Ugo Monye's podcast.  He comes across as intelligent.

Neill

Reading the papers this morning looks like England are circling the wagons yet again.  Eddie hasn't got it yet - the reason England gave away so many crucial penalties was not ill discipline as such but pressure from a superior Welsh 15.  His side can't handle it at the moment and the captain doesn't have the right temperament. 

The players won't admit it, but the pressure of Lions selection is having a significant effect.  At the start of the six nations pretty much every player in the England squad would have thought they were at least in contention, and a fair few would have assumed they were nailed on. But some are trying too hard and others are scared to make mistakes.  

     

Blaendulais

Gatland is not daft.  Several English players have the last few games binned their Lions chances.  

Jalapeno

On Farrell vs Ford, there's a lot about Farrell's shortcomings ^^^^ -  in Farrell's defence he's a far better defender than Ford.  Ford seems to panic when there's a back-row bearing down on him (defence or attack), and physically he's a lot less of a presence.

Jalapeno

Blaendulais said:

Gatland is not daft.  Several English players have the last few games binned their Lions chances.  

Indeed, Itoje, May, first-pick front-row are contenders, but that's it.  Traditionally he's left a lot of England players behind anyway irrespective of form.

sev112

Jalapeno said:

On Farrell vs Ford, there's a lot about Farrell's shortcomings ^^^^ -  in Farrell's defence he's a far better defender than Ford.  Ford seems to panic when there's a back-row bearing down on him (defence or attack), and physically he's a lot less of a presence.

I really have to disagree with this.  Saturday’s game was a case in point where he made tackle of after tackle on big forwards.  He is a good tackler, he just looks smal..

Fretwired

Fair play to the ref .. he's admitted he made the wrong decision on the two tries in question. In fairness he wasn't just him .. the TMO influenced him.

Not sure it would have changed the result though. England's discipline is an issue.

digitalscream

Fretwired said:

Fair play to the ref .. he's admitted he made the wrong decision on the two tries in question. In fairness he wasn't just him .. the TMO influenced him.

Not sure it would have changed the result though. England's discipline is an issue.

Maybe, maybe not - in terms of the maths, removing those 14 points would've put it within a goal, which would've changed the entire face of the game.

MagicPigDetective

digitalscream said:

Fretwired said:

Fair play to the ref .. he's admitted he made the wrong decision on the two tries in question. In fairness he wasn't just him .. the TMO influenced him.

Not sure it would have changed the result though. England's discipline is an issue.

Maybe, maybe not - in terms of the maths, removing those 14 points would've put it within a goal, which would've changed the entire face of the game.

If using this logic, for both tries (I think, not sure about the 1st) Wales had a penalty advantage in kickable positions, so if they were dissallowed, you can reduce the 14 to 11 or 8 points. Take away 7 points for England’s Watson try which was very clearly from a very forward pass (no TMO, no mention at all of this in the post match analysis), makes the score 34/32 - 17 to Wales, stll convincing. Even if you take off all 14, it’s still 26 - 17. 

Jalapeno

MagicPigDetective said:

digitalscream said:

Fretwired said:

Fair play to the ref .. he's admitted he made the wrong decision on the two tries in question. In fairness he wasn't just him .. the TMO influenced him.

Not sure it would have changed the result though. England's discipline is an issue.

Maybe, maybe not - in terms of the maths, removing those 14 points would've put it within a goal, which would've changed the entire face of the game.

If using this logic, for both tries (I think, not sure about the 1st) Wales had a penalty advantage in kickable positions, so if they were dissallowed, you can reduce the 14 to 11 or 8 points. Take away 7 points for England’s Watson try which was very clearly from a very forward pass (no TMO, no mention at all of this in the post match analysis), makes the score 34/32 - 17 to Wales, stll convincing. Even if you take off all 14, it’s still 26 - 17. 

Don't think any England supporter is saying "we was robbed !" - it was the right result regardless, just crap refereeing.

Gulliver

I still think it's absolute madness that with England, 6 of the starting 15 have had zero club game time. If they were being used as replacements that'd be one thing, but all the Sarries players in the squad started, and there's some real talent in the premiership not getting an England call up.  Why the hell Marcus Smith or Alex Dombrandt aren't getting a call up from Quins is beyond me.

(Although as a Quins fan I'm OK with us having the full squad for club games and being 3rd in the table right now)

Neill

Gulliver said:

I still think it's absolute madness that with England, 6 of the starting 15 have had zero club game time. If they were being used as replacements that'd be one thing, but all the Sarries players in the squad started, and there's some real talent in the premiership not getting an England call up.  Why the hell Marcus Smith or Alex Dombrandt aren't getting a call up from Quins is beyond me.

(Although as a Quins fan I'm OK with us having the full squad for club games and being 3rd in the table right now)

The same reason EJ would never pick Danny Cipriani when every rugby fan knew he was the best no 10 in England.

There are certain players who just don't fit the Jones model for various reasons and he won't change his style to accommodate them.  Now you can understand that up to a point but when the team keeps making the same mistakes and losing matches it's surely time to change either the methods or the personnel.  

No-one has mentioned it yet I don't think but my goodness England are missing Joe Launchbury.  IMHO he is more important to England than Itoje, a bit like Scotland's Jonny Gray, not flash, just a hard working big lump who rarely gets on the wrong side of the ref.

p90fool

digitalscream said:

Fretwired said:

Fair play to the ref .. he's admitted he made the wrong decision on the two tries in question. In fairness he wasn't just him .. the TMO influenced him.

Not sure it would have changed the result though. England's discipline is an issue.

Maybe, maybe not - in terms of the maths, removing those 14 points would've put it within a goal, which would've changed the entire face of the game.

Perhaps, but had the ref not made any shaky decisions in the first half then guilt wouldn't have prevented him from binning at least one England player for persistent infringement in the second. 

As it stood, he didn't dare. 

Fretwired

Gulliver said:

I still think it's absolute madness that with England, 6 of the starting 15 have had zero club game time. If they were being used as replacements that'd be one thing, but all the Sarries players in the squad started, and there's some real talent in the premiership not getting an England call up.  Why the hell Marcus Smith or Alex Dombrandt aren't getting a call up from Quins is beyond me.

(Although as a Quins fan I'm OK with us having the full squad for club games and being 3rd in the table right now)

^^

This.

Jones' should give some other Premiership talent a go in the remaining games and rest the Sarries players. He has nothing to lose but will get a view of some other possible options to improve discipline which is England's Achilles heel.

TimmyO

Fretwired said:

Fair play to the ref .. he's admitted he made the wrong decision on the two tries in question. In fairness he wasn't just him .. the TMO influenced him.

Not sure it would have changed the result though. England's discipline is an issue.

Ooh has he? I shall go for a read