EU Referendum Vote - Poll

RandallFlagg

eSully said:

And todays "Angry man in local paper" award goes to ..... {drum roll}

I agree, more beaver. Where do I sign up?

Phil_aka_Pip

Drew_fx said:

We had a referendum on the voting system before right? I was hoping it would change, but it didn't.

It was about a choice between FPTP and some half-arsed AV idea that DC invented because he knew nobody would vote for it. It wasn't a choice between FPTP and proper PR. I don't know why Clegg went along with the vote because the alternative being offered wasn't what Clegg wanted. And DC knew that, the sly bastard.

Phil_aka_Pip

eSully said:

And todays "Angry man in local paper" award goes to ..... {drum roll}

Wearing shorts like that he's not going to attract much 'beaver'

Nitefly

Well.

The die has been cast, and the wheel is in spin *

I've voted by post, and I've voted for... IN.

*Thanks, Bob.

Fretwired

The decision is simple:

Vote Remain if you want closer integration with the EU, more laws made by an unelected elite in Brussels, no control over our borders and ultimately the Euro replacing the pound.

Vote Leave is you want the UK to be able to govern itself as an independent nation.

The economics are irrelevant as nobody knows with any certainty what will happen if we remain or leave.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

The decision is simple:

Vote Remain if you want closer integration with the EU, more laws made by an unelected elite in Brussels, no control over our borders and ultimately the Euro replacing the pound.

Vote Leave is you want the UK to be able to govern itself as an independent nation.

The economics are irrelevant as nobody knows with any certainty what will happen if we remain or leave.

Or vote Leave if you want the UK to be governed by international corporations and American foreign policy.

I'm also unconvinced by the scaremongering about further European integration. The wheels are starting to come off that anyway.

The third one, I will give you.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

The decision is simple:

Vote Remain if you want closer integration with the EU, more laws made by an unelected elite in Brussels, no control over our borders and ultimately the Euro replacing the pound.

Vote Leave is you want the UK to be able to govern itself as an independent nation.

The economics are irrelevant as nobody knows with any certainty what will happen if we remain or leave.

Or vote Leave if you want the UK to be governed by international corporations and American foreign policy.

I'm also unconvinced by the scaremongering about further European integration. The wheels are starting to come off that anyway.

The third one, I will give you.

Further integration is the only thing that can save the EU. A left-wing French politician has written an open letter to UK voters telling them to vote leave as people in France and Germany are sick to death with our attitude and our attempts to block integration and wring concessions out of Brussels. He says the UK is the biggest problem facing the EU. There's an ounce of truth in what he has written.

ICBM

There's often an ounce of truth in many false arguments - it's what can make them seem believable.

I don't believe further integration is either inevitable or necessary to 'save' the EU - in fact the opposite, slowing it down and even reversing some of it would make the whole thing stronger in some ways. Half the problems they've got themselves into are from being too determined to press ahead in spite of the misgivings of a lot of the populations of all the countries, not just the UK.

Right now I would say the Euro is the biggest problem facing the EU - or more accurately, the strains caused by trying to integrate countries that should never have joined in the first place, and not accept the consequences.

TTony

Rocker said:

Before getting married a couple will know what they are letting themselves in for. 

Which is very fortunate.

Otherwise, there'd be any number of separations and divorces ...

Modulus_Amps

ICBM said:

Or vote Leave if you want the UK to be governed by international corporations and American foreign policy.

I'm also unconvinced by the scaremongering about further European integration. The wheels are starting to come off that anyway.

The aims of the EU are published, and further integration is definitely on the greater agenda, if you are pro it then it is not scaremongering. To be fair GB is probably holding them back against further integration and they may be glad to see the back of us.

http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-information/about/index_en.htm

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/european_government/european_union.html

From the above website:

The European Union has four main aims:

• To establish European citizenship. This means protection of fundamental human rights and freedoms.
• To ensure freedom, security and justice. This means co-operation in the field of justice and home affairs.
• To promote economic and social progress. This involves the single market, the euro, environmental protection and social and regional development.
• To assert Europe's role in the world.

Like I said if you are for it then it is not scaremongering.

ICBM

Modulus_Amps said:

The aims of the EU are published, and further integration is definitely on the greater agenda, if you are pro it then it is not scaremongering. To be fair GB is probably holding them back against further integration and they may be glad to see the back of us.

http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-information/about/index_en.htm

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/european_government/european_union.html

From the above website:

The European Union has four main aims:

• To establish European citizenship. This means protection of fundamental human rights and freedoms.
• To ensure freedom, security and justice. This means co-operation in the field of justice and home affairs.
• To promote economic and social progress. This involves the single market, the euro, environmental protection and social and regional development.
• To assert Europe's role in the world.

Like I said if you are for it then it is not scaremongering.

Exactly, but further integration is not necessary to achieve any of those things. (Nor even is the Euro.) Proper co-operation between the nations is, but that isn't the same thing at all. Where we fall down is in being unwilling to co-operate - but I still doubt they really want to see the back of us, they would prefer co-operation.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

There's often an ounce of truth in many false arguments - it's what can make them seem believable.

Not sure it's a false argument - I've been to the EU Commission and Parliament a few times and know a few MEPs. The guys at the top - Junker and co - really don't like the UK as too much time gets wasted trying to appease us. I'm really surprised they didn't just offer us a trade deal to leave (they still might depending on how the vote goes). It's also not helped by Farage insulting them at every turn in debates.

If we vote to leave my guess is they will effectively create a new level of membership for us (trade and movement) and some of the weaker nations like Greece and Portugal and Denmark which, like the UK, is also Euro-sceptic. The remaining countries are closer aligned economically and could plough ahead with further political and economic integration.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

If we vote to leave my guess is they will effectively create a new level of membership for us (trade and movement) and some of the weaker nations like Greece and Portugal and Denmark which, like the UK, is also Euro-sceptic. The remaining countries are closer aligned economically and could plough ahead with further political and economic integration.

I actually agree with most of that as a workable outcome, but I feel it's going to be easier to achieve it from inside than outside. The opposite of why I voted Yes in the Scottish referendum, I know - but I think that the EU will find it easier to turn its backs on us than England would have on Scotland, and it will be harder for the UK to do well outside than the Leave optimists think.

I agree with Junker & co not liking us, but the reason for that is in the rest of what you said there .

chillidoggy

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

The decision is simple:

Vote Remain if you want closer integration with the EU, more laws made by an unelected elite in Brussels, no control over our borders and ultimately the Euro replacing the pound.

Vote Leave is you want the UK to be able to govern itself as an independent nation.

The economics are irrelevant as nobody knows with any certainty what will happen if we remain or leave.

Or vote Leave if you want the UK to be governed by international corporations and American foreign policy.

I'm also unconvinced by the scaremongering about further European integration. The wheels are starting to come off that anyway.

The third one, I will give you.

Further integration is the only thing that can save the EU. A left-wing French politician has written an open letter to UK voters telling them to vote leave as people in France and Germany are sick to death with our attitude and our attempts to block integration and wring concessions out of Brussels. He says the UK is the biggest problem facing the EU. There's an ounce of truth in what he has written.

I'd say it's more like a kilogram.

Phil_aka_Pip

chillidoggy said:

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

The decision is simple:

Vote Remain if you want closer integration with the EU, more laws made by an unelected elite in Brussels, no control over our borders and ultimately the Euro replacing the pound.

Vote Leave is you want the UK to be able to govern itself as an independent nation.

The economics are irrelevant as nobody knows with any certainty what will happen if we remain or leave.

Or vote Leave if you want the UK to be governed by international corporations and American foreign policy.

I'm also unconvinced by the scaremongering about further European integration. The wheels are starting to come off that anyway.

The third one, I will give you.

Further integration is the only thing that can save the EU. A left-wing French politician has written an open letter to UK voters telling them to vote leave as people in France and Germany are sick to death with our attitude and our attempts to block integration and wring concessions out of Brussels. He says the UK is the biggest problem facing the EU. There's an ounce of truth in what he has written.

I'd say it's more like a kilogram.

nah, 2.20462 lb

Chalky

ICBM;1095962" said:

Modulus_Amps said:The aims of the EU are published, and further integration is definitely on the greater agenda, if you are pro it then it is not scaremongering. To be fair GB is probably holding them back against further integration and they may be glad to see the back of us.

http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-information/about/index_en.htm



http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/european_government/european_union.html

From the above website:The European Union has four main aims:

To establish European citizenship. This means protection of fundamental

human rights and freedoms. To ensure freedom, security and justice. This means co-operation in the

field of justice and home affairs. To promote economic and social progress. This involves the single market,

the euro, environmental protection and social and regional development.

To assert Europe's role in the world.

Like I said if you are for it then it is not scaremongering.










Exactly, but further integration is not necessary to achieve any of those things. (Nor even is the Euro.) Proper co-operation between the nations is, but that isn't the same thing at all. Where we fall down is in being unwilling to co-operate - but I still doubt they really want to see the back of us, they would prefer co-operation.

Do you accept the fact that successive French and German governments have restated their intention of closer union? It is what they sincerely want. And it is what they will achieve.

Please stop pretending that you can change their minds on this.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Modulus_Amps said:

The aims of the EU are published, and further integration is definitely on the greater agenda, if you are pro it then it is not scaremongering. To be fair GB is probably holding them back against further integration and they may be glad to see the back of us.

http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-information/about/index_en.htm

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/european_government/european_union.html

From the above website:

The European Union has four main aims:

• To establish European citizenship. This means protection of fundamental human rights and freedoms.
• To ensure freedom, security and justice. This means co-operation in the field of justice and home affairs.
• To promote economic and social progress. This involves the single market, the euro, environmental protection and social and regional development.
• To assert Europe's role in the world.

Like I said if you are for it then it is not scaremongering.

Exactly, but further integration is not necessary to achieve any of those things. (Nor even is the Euro.) Proper co-operation between the nations is, but that isn't the same thing at all. Where we fall down is in being unwilling to co-operate - but I still doubt they really want to see the back of us, they would prefer co-operation.

To establish EU citizenship first you need to create an EU State. One state, one flag, one anthem, one passport, one army, one president, one foreign secretary and presumably one seat at the UN (to assert Europe's role in the world).

Phil_aka_Pip

Chalky said:

ICBM;1095962" said:

Modulus_Amps said:The aims of the EU are published, and further integration is definitely on the greater agenda, if you are pro it then it is not scaremongering. To be fair GB is probably holding them back against further integration and they may be glad to see the back of us.

http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-information/about/index_en.htm



http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/european_government/european_union.html

From the above website:The European Union has four main aims:

To establish European citizenship. This means protection of fundamental

human rights and freedoms. To ensure freedom, security and justice. This means co-operation in the

field of justice and home affairs. To promote economic and social progress. This involves the single market,

the euro, environmental protection and social and regional development.

To assert Europe's role in the world.

Like I said if you are for it then it is not scaremongering.










Exactly, but further integration is not necessary to achieve any of those things. (Nor even is the Euro.) Proper co-operation between the nations is, but that isn't the same thing at all. Where we fall down is in being unwilling to co-operate - but I still doubt they really want to see the back of us, they would prefer co-operation.

Do you accept the fact that successive French and German governments have restated their intention of closer union? It is what they sincerely want. And it is what they will achieve.

Please stop pretending that you can change their minds on this.

I do believe they have. But when will they agree on a common language? The French won't agree to anything but French, and I can't see the Germans agreeing to anything but German.

The only answer is a European SuperState, run by the UK for the benefit of the UK, subservient to the UK, and all speaking English.

Fretwired

Phil_aka_Pip said:

C

I do believe they have. But when will they agree on a common language? The French won't agree to anything but French, and I can't see the Germans agreeing to anything but German.

The only answer is a European SuperState, run by the UK for the benefit of the UK, subservient to the UK, and all speaking English.

The official language of the EU is French. The Scandinavians and Eastern Europeans refuse to speak it and use English. This seriously pisses off the French. Always worth reminding ourselves of this ....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4840160.stm

Phil_aka_Pip

Fretwired said:

This seriously pisses off the French. Always good for a laugh

he he he