EU Referendum Vote - Poll

TTony

If we weren't already in the EU, would you vote to join it now, knowing all that we do?

RandallFlagg

TTony said:

If we weren't already in the EU, would you vote to join it now, knowing all that we do?

No way

TTony

RandallFlagg said:

TTony said:

If we weren't already in the EU, would you vote to join it now, knowing all that we do?

No way

I'd expect many people would find it easier to answer the "should we join it" question, than the question we're being asked to answer.

The end result would be - ultimately and after a transition period - the same, the decision would be a lot easier to reach and a lot of the noise and speculation would be nullified.

Fretwired

Axe_meister said:

Fretwired said:

Axe_meister said:

One thing for sure. Leaving will make lawyers/accountants/IT consultants very rich as every business system out there will need to be changed/patched/upgraded.
Lawyers will be fighting the unions over new regulations and accountants will be figuring out how to avoid new loopholes as older EU based loopholes get closed.
This will cost will be huge

Why will business systems have to be changed? Why will lawyers be fighting the Unions? Is this more FUD from Remain?

Not FUD just a fact of life.

Any massive change in regulations (which is one of the points of leaving the EU), ends up costing companies money in IT.

Also the unions quite like a  lot of the EU working regulations, which may well be changed after a Brexit to make us more competitive, the unions won't like it.

Any why the aggression, I was just pointing out one aspect of leaving the EU, and something I have experience of. Why can't we discuss points of view without an immediate shout of FUD/Lies just because it contradicts your point of view.

@Axe_meister No aggression just wondered why - two honest questions. The FUD comment was referring to whether this is what Cameron is saying - I'm not keeping up with the latest slanging match in the kindergarten. If it's your opinion I'd like to know why?

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired;1095020" said:

Both sides are lying, as is Corbyn as you can tell he'd really like to vote to leave as well. If it's sunny on polling day we'll remain. If it's pouring with rain we'll leave. I'm surprised Cameron hasn't pulled a stunt by making polling day a bank holiday.

Agreed. And it will be sunny just like last month. 15 hours in a Scout hut in the sun...

At the elections last month here in Bristol, a lot of local Tories were really pushing for votes to be held on a Bank Holiday as they believed it would get more people out to the ballot box. None of them considered the fact that all clerks, ballot officers, presiding officers etc would be on double time for working for the state on a state holiday. The three staff members in my station were costing 500 quid roughly for the day. There were 212 stations in total. When this figure was given to the debating gents in question who were then asked to double that figure for working on a Bank Holiday, they rather dropped their line of argument.

Is there a price on democracy? I did it a few times back in the late 70s. It was well paid back then, although my council offered two extra days holiday in lieu of the extra pay  - you still got your standard pay so you were giving up the extra charges.

BigBearKris

TTony;1095119" said:

RandallFlagg said:



TTony said:





If we weren't already in the EU, would you vote to join it now, knowing all that we do?













No way





I'd expect many people would find it easier to answer the "should we join it" question, than the question we're being asked to answer.

The end result would be - ultimately and after a transition period - the same, the decision would be a lot easier to reach and a lot of the noise and speculation would be nullified.

But IT IS a different question. UK is part of EU and circumstances are different.

Axe_meister

@fretwired

As somebody who works at corporate IT level I know from personal experience that regulatory change is a big headache.

The number of times I've had to battle trade unions, because of it beggers belief, just changing somebodies job role, as the old role is defunct can cause issues. Some issues may be around working time directives for instance.

Then there will be the additional red tape (and changes to IT systems) if we are out of Europe as they may well insist on extra checks/balances whereas now quality/regulatory requirements are taken as read as we are in the EU currently.

I remember when the Euro symbol was introduced, all of our automated document specialists and accountancy consultants where busy for years, changing templates and currency conversion routines.

I'm still undecided, From a personal point of view leaving could give me a nice short term boost in terms of the amount of work out there, but I can see a lot of companies having to divert funds rather than investing in newer technologies to improve competitiveness, which will make my work dull as dish water and I won't make commission on selling new sexy stuff.

Y2K was a classic example where most software companies saw very few sales as everybody was making their systems Y2K safe. 

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired;1095145" said:

At the elections last month here in Bristol, a lot of local Tories were really pushing for votes to be held on a Bank Holiday as they believed it would get more people out to the ballot box. None of them considered the fact that all clerks, ballot officers, presiding officers etc would be on double time for working for the state on a state holiday. The three staff members in my station were costing 500 quid roughly for the day. There were 212 stations in total. When this figure was given to the debating gents in question who were then asked to double that figure for working on a Bank Holiday, they rather dropped their line of argument.





Is there a price on democracy? I did it a few times back in the late 70s. It was well paid back then, although my council offered two extra days holiday in lieu of the extra pay  - you still got your standard pay so you were giving up the extra charges.

It's about keeping costs sensible. A number of fringe right and left wingers in Bristol were whining about the way it took three days to announce the local elections on the Sunday after polling, ignoring all logistical issues. Many put forward computerised counting as the way forward on the basis that London used that method. For Bristol, the cost of such a system is much larger than using human count staff and the size of Bristol's voting public (about three hundred thousand) compared to that of London. If you pay for a computer system for Bristol, then the money goes out of the local area. There were some 500 count staff working that weekend, a lot of students and retired people. I'd much rather use them than throwing more money at a software company outside the area.

It's also true that with our mayoral election, the vote was Thursday, result Saturday, and the new mayor was sworn in on Monday. That's quicker than the process to elect and then swear in new Members of Parliament. It felt that those criticising democracy in Bristol weren't doing so from any real basis of knowledge of other systems, and that the way it was done in Bristol was actually quite efficient and cost effective

Heartfeltdawn

TTony;1095073" said:

If we weren't already in the EU, would you vote to join it now, knowing all that we do?

I'd level this at our parliamentary electoral system before the EU. Would you vote for first past the post, knowing all that we do? If Leave win and demonstrate that a cross-party approach for a referendum can be successful, then I believe Labour, Ukip, the Greens, Lib Dems, et al should get together and start a discussion on electoral reform. Tories of both sides, Remain and Leave, have demanded European reform. The same should be demanded for our democratic system. If the EU can be considered archaic then FPTP should be condemned likewise

Drew_TNBD

Heartfeltdawn said:

TTony;1095073" said:

If we weren't already in the EU, would you vote to join it now, knowing all that we do?

I'd level this at our parliamentary electoral system before the EU. Would you vote for first past the post, knowing all that we do? If Leave win and demonstrate that a cross-party approach for a referendum can be successful, then I believe Labour, Ukip, the Greens, Lib Dems, et al should get together and start a discussion on electoral reform. Tories of both sides, Remain and Leave, have demanded European reform. The same should be demanded for our democratic system. If the EU can be considered archaic then FPTP should be condemned likewise

We had a referendum on the voting system before right? I was hoping it would change, but it didn't.

Sambostar

We were given a vote on larger electoral areas, less MP's and a first, second, third choice voting system, where if you voted in a Tory area, your UKIP or Labour first choice would count as a Tory vote if you had Tory in second choice.  A FPTP system was never on the cards.  I didn't vote, many didn't, it would have favoured a Tory dictatorship more than the system does now.

Rocker

This thread is the online version of BBCs "The Big Questions".  A lot of words written but very little actual facts one way or the other.

eSully

Heartfeltdawn

Of course. Back in 2011 we had Tory backbenchers coming out and thanking Cameron for speaking out against Alternative Vote. Since then we now have more roles decided by non-FPTP systems. We have more mayoral elections decided by SV. We have PCC elections decided by SV. It would be used for future devolved elections under this act.

Cities_and_Local_Government_Devolution_Act_2016

Far more of the general public are now familiar with SV elections than in 2011. It is a real part of our electoral landscape. I believe that changes to FPTP should be discussed. PR would make things more democratic. After so much said about the lack of democracy within the EU, then we should be making our system more democratic.

Heartfeltdawn

Rocker;1095302" said:

This thread is the online version of BBCs "The Big Questions".  A lot of words written but very little actual facts one way or the other.

It's the Russ Andrews catalogue of Fretboard political threads.

RandallFlagg

The facts are in the opening post, in the poll, that's the way we are planning to vote, that is all that matters in the end

eSully

Rocker;1095302" said:

This thread is the online version of BBCs "The Big Questions".  A lot of words written but very little actual facts one way or the other.

What facts were you expecting that haven't been mentioned @rocker? Where facts are available I think people are trying to post them to support their argument, I've seen quiet a few hard facts posted on this thread as well as some opinions wrapped up as "facts". Be it leave (I almost typed the B word, that's was close) or remain. You can't state a fact about the future either way on this!

eSully

And todays "Angry man in local paper" award goes to ..... {drum roll}

Chalky

Rocker;1095302" said:

This thread is the online version of BBCs "The Big Questions".  A lot of words written but very little actual facts one way or the other.

Tell me today any fact about what world politics or economy will be in 2 years. Any fact you like. Any....

No? Phone an 'expert'. Anyone you like. They won't know either.

Can you even predict confidently what your own life will be in 2 years?

Rocker

It is impossible to predict the future as we all know. Read this thread from page 1 and you will find it impossible to determine opinions from facts. Or opinions from likely happenings. Before getting married a couple will know what they are letting themselves in for. An important decision like IN or OUT needs facts or reasoned probabilities so that the right decision is arrived at. Vote for the right reason not because the PM or Borris says vote this way or that. Lots of forums have similar threads, all equally confusing and full of suggestions that people are planning to vote out because Cameron wants the UK to stay in. Out might be the best choice but make that choice for the right reason.