EU Referendum Vote - Poll

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said: Aha ... you're using the Sun .. now that is desperate .. the Sun can print what it likes and judging from the general press Leave issued a press release which the Sun cherry picked from. This actually came up in April and remember Gove saying the Tories made a mistake. Everyone of a certain age remembers it's the Tories - it helped Labour win the election. Major wanted 17.5% but was defeated in the Commons and had to stick with 8% - Brown then reduced it to 5%.

"The Sun can print what it likes" - If I replied in that way to every Telegraph link you put up, you'd accuse me of being a complete imbecile/an absolute prick/whatever your choice. 

The Sun article was endorsed by all three members. Two of those individuals, Boris and Gove, have written articles in the Sun previously. Another Vote Leave backer, Priti Patel, has an article today. Stuart and Gove are co-convener's of the Leave Committee; Stuart is also the Chairman of the Board. Vote Leave provides a list of links: they have used the Sun many times already as a tool for opinion making.  

The idea that the Sun has somehow gone in there and been given free reign to compose this piece with no Vote Leave input is outstandingly ludicrous. 

1. Why is it desperate to provide a Sun article which was contributed to and supported by the Leave campaign?  

2. Where is this press release that the Sun cherry picked from? A link please.

3. If the fuel/VAT issue came up in April, why does a Google search for "Gove VAT fuel" for the month of April 2016 provide absolutely nothing?  Going further, from 1st April to 20th May, the only link that comes up on a search for "Gove fuel VAT leave" features an article in the Sun on Boris talking about petrol and VAT. If the VAT issue was around previously, why is it absolutely nowhere to be seen in the official Vote Leave brochure (the online version)? 

There, I'll leave that for now and go for a run instead. 

The Sun has a track record in printing lies - I give you Hillsborough. The Telegraph, whilst not perfect, has higher journalistic standards.

An article was published in the Sun which didn't claim the EU imposed VAT on domestic fuel, but failed to mention the Tories did. So what? A few hours later quotes from Gove stating the Tories were to blame for the imposition of VAT on fuel appeared on news websites. I don't understand the point you're making.

The Leave Campaign is made up of MPs from all parties and there is a Labour MP's name on the article - this not about party politics. The article in the Sun states that if the UK left the EU the VAT charge could be removed, which is true. What I think could have happened is the Sun has taken a press release and hashed it into an article. There are no specific quotes from anybody, which is odd, especially for motor mouth Boris. It's all 'we' which I think is a lazy way to write anything.

Either way we don't know. Storm in a tea cup.

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

Edit: I can find no evidence that the Leave campaign blame the EU for domestic fuel duty.

Then why did Gove think it timely to acknowledge that error of the Major government? I think they got caught out by that Sun article in terms of people being able to bring up the Tory government of the day. 

  Provehe did. You can't. You're clutching at straws. A typical Remain campaigner .. all spin, no substance.

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

Edit: I can find no evidence that the Leave campaign blame the EU for domestic fuel duty.

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_energy

"The EU forces us to increase taxes on energy which particularly hits poorer families."

http://i.imgur.com/LOEQVnH.jpg

I'm more than happy to be proven completely wrong here. Blow me away with a fact bomb, smear me over the landscape with truth grenades, anything. 

More FUD. Nothing to do with VAT on fuel.

chillidoggy

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

My postal vote has arrived .....

In with the nutjobs, out with the nutjobs. Either way, it's a good election for nutjobs. 

I thought you were going for a run?

Fretwired

chillidoggy said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

My postal vote has arrived .....

In with the nutjobs, out with the nutjobs. Either way, it's a good election for nutjobs. 

I thought you were going for a run?

Typical Remain campaigner .. says one thing, does something else .... have the Tories imposed VAT on running yet?

:-)

chillidoggy

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

My postal vote has arrived .....

In with the nutjobs, out with the nutjobs. Either way, it's a good election for nutjobs. 

I thought you were going for a run?

Typical Remain campaigner .. says one thing, does something else .... have the Tories imposed VAT on running yet?

:-)

No, but the EU are planning to if we vote to remain.

Heartfeltdawn

@Fretwired I am. I have. 5km in 27 minutes I've also got some info which I'm PM you. 

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said: What I think could have happened is the Sun has taken a press release and hashed it into an article. There are no specific quotes from anybody, which is odd, especially for motor mouth Boris. It's all 'we' which I think is a lazy way to write anything.

Lazy, yes. But not a rehashed press release. This is like Bavarian arm wrestling without the lederhosen.

And why so miffed, chaps? Leave is going to win!

Clarky

remain in or leave… I reckon the fuel tax and VAT will remain the same

what can happen and what will happen are most likely not the same thing

and the next time the price of petrol gets eye-wateringly high, the government will no doubt blame the oil companies for it..

kinda 'pss down your back and tell you it's raining'

eSully

ICBM

You'd think the Yanks would have cottoned on to that given how popular theirs is at flag-burnings.

Fretwired

Clarky said:

remain in or leave… I reckon the fuel tax and VAT will remain the same

what can happen and what will happen are most likely not the same thing

and the next time the price of petrol gets eye-wateringly high, the government will no doubt blame the oil companies for it..

kinda 'pss down your back and tell you it's raining'

Not sure on the domestic fuel VAT. Labour want it removed whether we stay or go as it hits the poor. There's cross party support for this .. has been for a long time. Gove's just jumped on the bandwagon. In fairness to Brown he reduced it to 5% (the minimum under EU rules). A Tory cock-up that gave Labour the slogan "Never trust the Tories with VAT" ...

ICBM

"with VAT" seems a bit unnecessary.

RandallFlagg

Britain leaves EU cue domino effect that's what's panicking the establishment. I will be voting leave

ToneControl

UnclePsychosis said:

@esully it was a general remark, not particularly directed at anyone.

The money going to the NHS thing comes from the Vote Leave campaign. Their "battle bus" has a giant slogan implying we can spend an extra £350m a week on the NHS on it. It's a horrific piece of dishonesty.

Your last remark- that it won't be easy- is an interesting one. There's a difference between saying you shouldn't do something and saying you can't do something. Clearly the UK *could* survive in the case of Brexit. The point is that it would be *better* if we didnt. Scottish Nationalists don't seem to understand this either. (Again, a general remark).

I have seen no convincing evidence that it would definitely be better to remain

I've seen stats that are clearly grossly misleading, based on very pessimistic assumptions

I've heard the US president demean himself with comments about a trade deal that the EU probably won't get anyway

Most countries trade without trade deals, it's not a big deal

So, we are richer than most of the EU, and heavily subsidise the poorer states and France - but we will be worse off outside the EU?

You need to watch this: 

Canada, Oz and NZ are doing fine outside the EU, but the UK, 5th largest economy in the world should be panicking at the prospect? I think not

The EU causes many problems, and is dragging us down 

It's also hugely wasteful

10,000 officials = 20% of the EU staff are paid more than the equivalent of a UK £142k salary (they have awarded themselves special low tax rates of 13.4%)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10847979/10000-European-Union-officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.html

RandallFlagg

ToneControl said:

UnclePsychosis said:

@esully it was a general remark, not particularly directed at anyone.

The money going to the NHS thing comes from the Vote Leave campaign. Their "battle bus" has a giant slogan implying we can spend an extra £350m a week on the NHS on it. It's a horrific piece of dishonesty.

Your last remark- that it won't be easy- is an interesting one. There's a difference between saying you shouldn't do something and saying you can't do something. Clearly the UK *could* survive in the case of Brexit. The point is that it would be *better* if we didnt. Scottish Nationalists don't seem to understand this either. (Again, a general remark).

I have seen no convincing evidence that it would definitely be better to remain

I've seen stats that are clearly grossly misleading, based on very pessimistic assumptions

I've heard the US president demean himself with comments about a trade deal that the EU probably won't get anyway

Most countries trade without trade deals, it's not a big deal

So, we are richer than most of the EU, and heavily subsidise the poorer states and France - but we will be worse off outside the EU?

You need to watch this: 

Canada, Oz and NZ are doing fine outside the EU, but the UK, 5th largest economy in the world should be panicking at the prospect? I think not

The EU causes many problems, and is dragging us down 

It's also hugely wasteful

10,000 officials = 20% of the EU staff are paid more than the equivalent of a UK £142k salary (they have awarded themselves special low tax rates of 13.4%)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10847979/10000-European-Union-officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.html ;

Excellent film and says it all. Do any of the vote Remain lot know how the EU beurocracy machine works and the names of those in charge? Who eactly are you voting to remain your leaders? Will you ever get chance to elect them and hold them accountable? I live in rural Norfolk and everyone, to a person, that I speak to are voting to leave and are quite passionate about it, even my mother-in-law who never votes in a general election is going to vote Leave. I'm voting LEAVE

ToneControl

Probably less than 1% of us know how the EU works

We are sleepwalking into being part of a large empire dominated by cultures and populations we have little in common with other than being white Christians. Did anyone in the UK vote for this political union?

The EU be voting in laws we must obey, and after political union, setting social, military, educational and business policy

the UK is currently 12% of the EU population

The (ex-USSR) Eastern EU countries currently are just short of 100m population

Turkey is 85m, then we have Albania, Croatia,etc

The EU could easily be dominated by Eastern European and Turkish voters in 20 years, as their people gain wealth - many countries double in population in the first "wealthy" generation

ToneControl

here's a good summary, showing that we are the 2nd largest net contributor into the EU, after the much larger population of Germany

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_statistics#EU_budget

look at the subsidies Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Belgium get - did any of you vote for this?

RandallFlagg

ToneControl said:

here's a good summary, showing that we are the 2nd largest net contributor into the EU, after the much larger population of Germany

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_statistics#EU_budget

look at the subsidies Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Belgium get - did any of you vote for this?

No we didn't

RandallFlagg

The most galling comment in that film is the Grimsby fisherman commenting that the EU will pay them to destroy their fishing boats.