EU Referendum Vote - Poll

chillidoggy

I think the grey vote will swing an exit.

littlegreenman

Fretwired said:

I would like the government to have control over the numbers and have a points system so we focus on people we need. It is interesting to note that we had as many immigrants from outside the EU as from the EU. And Dave said he wanted immigration under 100K. Perhaps he'd like to explain why so many people are allowed into the UK from outside the EU. This is one area we can control but don't.

We already have a points system for non-EU immigrants, the Tier Working Visa. It works so well that NHS trusts complain that they can't recruit enough Nurses from overseas that they need as it's too strict. I seem to remember there's been threads here about it preventing non-EU spouses and children coming here to be with a UK Wife/ Husband.

Tier 1 is "if you're rich, or incredibly well qualified please come on down". Tier 2 is the tough one, already have a guaranteed well paid job and sponsors. Tier 3 was revoked, and covered lower skilled work in areas that need the workers. Tier 4 is your student visa. Tier 5 covers specific temp jobs (charity work, etc).

We're about to deport a family back to Australia despite them having been offered post-grad work. They don't meet the Tier 2 Visa requirements, and the previous Post-Study Tier they were here under was retrospectively revoked as being too heavily abused.

Reworking the 2014 Immigration Act that's only just hit the statute book will obviously take time to take into account the new landscape regarding anyone from the EU now coming under the catch all as everyone from outside, unless we're going to have a separate set of rules for EU citizens. All of which will take time, and we all know how swift Whitehall is at getting stuff like this rubber-stamped.

It's a minefield to say the least, and I'm still not decided which way I'm voting. Heart says Remain, Head is asking "but are you really sure?".

Life would be so much easier if I could just wake up, buy a copy of the Daily Mail and recite the mantra - Fucking immigrants, vote Out

koneguitarist

Gassage said:

How anyone with half a brain can even consider leaving is beyond me. Truly.

Thats me told then!

Fretwired

littlegreenman said:

Fretwired said:

I would like the government to have control over the numbers and have a points system so we focus on people we need. It is interesting to note that we had as many immigrants from outside the EU as from the EU. And Dave said he wanted immigration under 100K. Perhaps he'd like to explain why so many people are allowed into the UK from outside the EU. This is one area we can control but don't.

We already have a points system for non-EU immigrants, the Tier Working Visa. It works so well that NHS trusts complain that they can't recruit enough Nurses from overseas that they need as it's too strict. I seem to remember there's been threads here about it preventing non-EU spouses and children coming here to be with a UK Wife/ Husband.

Tier 1 is "if you're rich, or incredibly well qualified please come on down". Tier 2 is the tough one, already have a guaranteed well paid job and sponsors. Tier 3 was revoked, and covered lower skilled work in areas that need the workers. Tier 4 is your student visa. Tier 5 covers specific temp jobs (charity work, etc).

We're about to deport a family back to Australia despite them having been offered post-grad work. They don't meet the Tier 2 Visa requirements, and the previous Post-Study Tier they were here under was retrospectively revoked as being too heavily abused.

Reworking the 2014 Immigration Act that's only just hit the statute book will obviously take time to take into account the new landscape regarding anyone from the EU now coming under the catch all as everyone from outside, unless we're going to have a separate set of rules for EU citizens. All of which will take time, and we all know how swift Whitehall is at getting stuff like this rubber-stamped.

It's a minefield to say the least, and I'm still not decided which way I'm voting. Heart says Remain, Head is asking "but are you really sure?".

Life would be so much easier if I could just wake up, buy a copy of the Daily Mail and recite the mantra - Fucking immigrants, vote Out

Immigrants aren't the problem. Just ask yourself who you want to govern the UK. That's the only question worth considering.

Sambostar

Well considering that there were 950,000 applications for national insurance numbers by non UK national in 2015 alone, that is to be debated, but I agree, it's about democracy and accountability and the potential for grass roots up feedback as well as top tier down policies, which, in a true democracy should work fairly well.

UnclePsychosis

TTony;1092727" said:

Garthy said:

This was actually in my economics course:



Fuck it, this forum never works. Try googling "assume a can opener".










As an economist, I don't need to Google that @Garthy, I'll just wis it.

If you want 5 conflicting opinions on an economic outcome, ask 2 economists.

That's a great idea. Maybe somebody should ask some economists what they think? 600 or so would be fairly statistically significant I should think. And with such a diverse range of economic opinions there's *definitely* no way 90% of them would agree on anything!

I wish someone else had thought to do this. Perhaps in more detail. And with a link to the results. Oh well, next time maybe?

littlegreenman

Fretwired said:

littlegreenman said:

Fretwired said:

I would like the government to have control over the numbers and have a points system so we focus on people we need. It is interesting to note that we had as many immigrants from outside the EU as from the EU. And Dave said he wanted immigration under 100K. Perhaps he'd like to explain why so many people are allowed into the UK from outside the EU. This is one area we can control but don't.

We already have a points system for non-EU immigrants, the Tier Working Visa. It works so well that NHS trusts complain that they can't recruit enough Nurses from overseas that they need as it's too strict. I seem to remember there's been threads here about it preventing non-EU spouses and children coming here to be with a UK Wife/ Husband.

Tier 1 is "if you're rich, or incredibly well qualified please come on down". Tier 2 is the tough one, already have a guaranteed well paid job and sponsors. Tier 3 was revoked, and covered lower skilled work in areas that need the workers. Tier 4 is your student visa. Tier 5 covers specific temp jobs (charity work, etc).

We're about to deport a family back to Australia despite them having been offered post-grad work. They don't meet the Tier 2 Visa requirements, and the previous Post-Study Tier they were here under was retrospectively revoked as being too heavily abused.

Reworking the 2014 Immigration Act that's only just hit the statute book will obviously take time to take into account the new landscape regarding anyone from the EU now coming under the catch all as everyone from outside, unless we're going to have a separate set of rules for EU citizens. All of which will take time, and we all know how swift Whitehall is at getting stuff like this rubber-stamped.

It's a minefield to say the least, and I'm still not decided which way I'm voting. Heart says Remain, Head is asking "but are you really sure?".

Life would be so much easier if I could just wake up, buy a copy of the Daily Mail and recite the mantra - Fucking immigrants, vote Out

Immigrants aren't the problem. Just ask yourself who you want to govern the UK. That's the only question worth considering.

Oh I know. I've grown sick of trying to explain that to my work colleagues who think immigration is the only issue and that an out vote will once again make this the green and pleasant Hovis land they think once existed, hence the DM mantra quip. There's a girl in work who refuses to believe that illegal immigration will continue after a Leave vote!

The other issues are the tricky ones, the economy has to be the biggest, and the hardest to predict. Human rights? Hmmm.

Deep breath in the polling booth on the day and go with whatever my gut tells me is probably going to be my flip of the coin.

In the meantime, I'll continue enjoying freedom of movement. Case in point, I'm just off to book my annual trip to Le Tour de France finale in Paris.

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

I'm also voting to leave but I don't think immigration is as big an issue (which is why the Leave mob haven't really being using it as a reason to quit as whether we're in or out we will need migrants).

Immigration isn't an issue... you might want to tell that to Paul Dacre and the dance of delight that has erupted since the 29th when immigration was brought right into the picture. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3617421/Poll-surge-Brexit-record-breaking-EU-immigration-figures-drive-public-fears-numbers-coming-Britain.html

Chalky

UnclePsychosis;1092884" said:

[quote="TTony;1092727"]Garthy said:

This was actually in my economics course:



Fuck it, this forum never works. Try googling "assume a can opener".










As an economist, I don't need to Google that @Garthy, I'll just wis it.

If you want 5 conflicting opinions on an economic outcome, ask 2 economists.

That's a great idea. Maybe somebody should ask some economists what they think? 600 or so would be fairly statistically significant I should think. And with such a diverse range of economic opinions there's *definitely* no way 90% of them would agree on anything!

I wish someone else had thought to do this. Perhaps in more detail. And with a link to the results. Oh well, next time maybe?

[/quote]

Great idea! While you are there can you ask them what the FTSE will be in say 3 months time? Or maybe the Sterling-Euro rate? That way we could all make money from it! And predicting a single economic measure in 3 months must be sooooo much easier than predicting a notional measure in 5 years! Surely?

UnclePsychosis

We're back to that whole weather/climate thing again there. You didn't do so well on that either.

Heartfeltdawn

littlegreenman said:

Oh I know. I've grown sick of trying to explain that to my work colleagues who think immigration is the only issue and that an out vote will once again make this the green and pleasant Hovis land they think once existed, hence the DM mantra quip. There's a girl in work who refuses to believe that illegal immigration will continue after a Leave vote!

The other issues are the tricky ones, the economy has to be the biggest, and the hardest to predict. Human rights? Hmmm.

Deep breath in the polling booth on the day and go with whatever my gut tells me is probably going to be my flip of the coin.

Mr Fret mentioned earlier in this thread how the Leave campaign have not exactly grasped the immigration issue firmly. It's obvious why they haven't: it would enable the UKIP crowd in future domestic elections. A Leave win followed by a lack of clear government action to reduce immigration would ramp things up considerably for the 2020 election. Leave want this to be a Tory victory on Europe, not one where UKIP can take any credit. 

Imagine how that post-Cameron Tory party might look: a party moving away from the centre ground led by a Leave campaign-swollen Boris, IDS and Liam Fox back in business. You get a few people leaving the party, UKIP get to shout loudly about how little action has been taken since the referendum... you're looking at one hell of a hung parliament there. 

littlegreenman

Heartfeltdawn said:

swollen Boris, IDS and Liam Fox back in business. one hell of a hung parliament there. 

edited for the lols. But yep that's a scary prospect all round.

Garthy

UnclePsychosis said:

TTony;1092727" said:

Garthy said:

This was actually in my economics course:



Fuck it, this forum never works. Try googling "assume a can opener".










As an economist, I don't need to Google that @Garthy, I'll just wis it.

If you want 5 conflicting opinions on an economic outcome, ask 2 economists.

That's a great idea. Maybe somebody should ask some economists what they think? 600 or so would be fairly statistically significant I should think. And with such a diverse range of economic opinions there's *definitely* no way 90% of them would agree on anything!

I wish someone else had thought to do this. Perhaps in more detail. And with a link to the results. Oh well, next time maybe?

Why is almost every comment you make barbed with disdain, sarcasm & condescension? It would be tolerable if you were even half as clever as you think you are.

Emp_Fab

We are a unique nation.  We have fought, and won, two world wars.  We have invented and discovered logarithms, submarines, the steam engine, the plough, incandescent lighting, electromagnets, computers, pedal bikes, Boolean algebra, hypodermic syringes, steel alloys, traffic lights, the telephone, electroluminescence, television, the jet engine, cats eyes, carbon fibre, cash machines, the WWW, electricity, gas turbines, radar, torpedos, the sextant, DNA, spiral galaxies, airliners, supersonic airliners, the propeller, fingerprinting, MRI scanners, plastic and music festivals - to name a small selection.

Remind me again what we need to be in a club with mainland Europe, run by unelected officials for ?

Sambostar

Because kids don't join REME and learn the latest jet engines inside and out as standard at 16 anymore?

UnclePsychosis

Emp_Fab;1092988" said:

We are a unique nation.  We have fought, and won, two world wars.  We have invented and discovered logarithms, submarines, the steam engine, the plough, incandescent lighting, electromagnets, computers, pedal bikes, Boolean algebra, hypodermic syringes, steel alloys, traffic lights, the telephone, electroluminescence, television, the jet engine, cats eyes, carbon fibre, cash machines, the WWW, electricity, gas turbines, radar, torpedos, the sextant, DNA, spiral galaxies, airliners, supersonic airliners, the propeller, fingerprinting, MRI scanners, plastic and music festivals - to name a small selection.

Remind me again what we need to be in a club run with mainland Europe, run by unelected officials for ?

The irony, is, of course, that the kinds of people most likely to be involved in high tech innovation---scientists and people with University degrees---are more likely to back Remain.

And you're bringing in the two *world* wars as a great example of Britain going it alone? Blimey, that's a stretch and a half.

Heartfeltdawn

Emp_Fab said:

We are a unique nation.  We have fought, and won, two world wars.  We have invented and discovered logarithms, submarines, the steam engine, the plough, incandescent lighting, electromagnets, computers, pedal bikes, Boolean algebra, hypodermic syringes, steel alloys, traffic lights, the telephone, electroluminescence, television, the jet engine, cats eyes, carbon fibre, cash machines, the WWW, electricity, gas turbines, radar, torpedos, the sextant, DNA, spiral galaxies, airliners, supersonic airliners, the propeller, fingerprinting, MRI scanners, plastic and music festivals - to name a small selection.

Remind me again what we need to be in a club run with mainland Europe, run by unelected officials for ?

Emp seen rehearsing his speech yesterday. 

Bucket

I just put the Remain camp back in the lead (67 to 66) and I'm proud of it.

slacker

Heartfeltdawn said:

littlegreenman said:

Oh I know. I've grown sick of trying to explain that to my work colleagues who think immigration is the only issue and that an out vote will once again make this the green and pleasant Hovis land they think once existed, hence the DM mantra quip. There's a girl in work who refuses to believe that illegal immigration will continue after a Leave vote!

The other issues are the tricky ones, the economy has to be the biggest, and the hardest to predict. Human rights? Hmmm.

Deep breath in the polling booth on the day and go with whatever my gut tells me is probably going to be my flip of the coin.

Mr Fret mentioned earlier in this thread how the Leave campaign have not exactly grasped the immigration issue firmly. It's obvious why they haven't: it would enable the UKIP crowd in future domestic elections. A Leave win followed by a lack of clear government action to reduce immigration would ramp things up considerably for the 2020 election. Leave want this to be a Tory victory on Europe, not one where UKIP can take any credit. 

Imagine how that post-Cameron Tory party might look: a party moving away from the centre ground led by a Leave campaign-swollen Boris, IDS and Liam Fox back in business. You get a few people leaving the party, UKIP get to shout loudly about how little action has been taken since the referendum... you're looking at one hell of a hung parliament there. 

Ref your last paragraph, that's a likely scenario, but. To get there we have to endure a pro remain Prime Minister running a post 'Brexit' country. That's not going to be pretty. 

chillidoggy

Anyone who thinks immigration isn't a problem needs to get their head out of the sand.