EU Referendum Vote - Poll

Drew_TNBD

PC_Dave said:

Drew_fx;1091994" said:

If I could cause a plague of locusts to attack every single person on this website, I would do it twice over and laugh both times. This website is the epitome of linguistic cancer. I'm just here to enjoy the fireworks.

That's not very nice.

True. I'm very sorry.

PC_Dave

Drew_fx;1092347" said:

PC_Dave said:

Drew_fx;1091994" said:



If I could cause a plague of locusts to attack every single person on this website, I would do it twice over and laugh both times. This website is the epitome of linguistic cancer. I'm just here to enjoy the fireworks.

That's not very nice.





True. I'm very sorry.

Thank you >-

Phil_aka_Pip

Drew_fx said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Drew_fx said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Drew_fx said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Drew_fx said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@Drew_fx I'm not sure you quite understood me. It's not about whether the group you observe can change. I was referring to the perception of the group from the point of view of the person outside the group, and saying that if the person outside the group were to understand them inside it by learning a little about them, then they needn't appear to be all the same.

I understood you perfectly. You didn't understand me. I group Catholics and Protestants together under the banner of Christian idiots precisely because they both cling to the same generalised set of bullshit beliefs. I don't need to be one or the other or even part of the group to understand it. Whereas the same is not true of the Chinese.

What about Hindus? Bhuddists? Muslims? Worshippers of other "pagan deities"? They're clearly not "christian" but are they some other kind of idiot?

Yes.

OK, that at least sounds consistent. Would you care to comment on the other bit?

Nope.

Your choice Drew.

BTW I think you're right about not wanting to do "menial" work as a result of the 1980s "self-esteem" thing. Or at least the effects. I think it was down to Thatcher shitting on heavy industry and manufacturing in general and letting us all think that the yuppie red braces thing was the only thing to aspire to.

Nowt to do with Thatcher mate. Read this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Snowflake-Effect-Trey-Willis/dp/1499795424

I'm sure I've seen mention of that before. Yep, I would agree that it's partly responsible. I am equally sure that the yuppiedom of the 1980s and the way in which heavy industry & manufacturing were derided/shat on by the government of the day had a lot to do with it. I distinctly remember being told that engineering and industry were not the kind of things this country wanted or needed any more - it was all about financial "products" and who needed the dirty old stuff anyway.

Sambostar

Phil_aka_Pip said:

I'm sure I've seen mention of that before. Yep, I would agree that it's partly responsible. I am equally sure that the yuppiedom of the 1980s and the way in which heavy industry & manufacturing were derided/shat on by the government of the day had a lot to do with it. I distinctly remember being told that engineering and industry were not the kind of things this country wanted or needed any more - it was all about Ponzi "Schemes" and who needed the dirty old stuff anyway.

FTFY. Problem is these days even many tradesmen have a few BTL's.  It's the only way to get a pay the mortgage on a place for the family.  The whole cart has gone rotten.  Mind you, London is supposed to be the most corrupt place on earth apparently.  Since Thatcher came along their has been a concerted push to invest everything in the financial sector as the expense of everything else that is for sure, and Blair was just as bad if not worse than any modern Tory government.  It's all short termism politics.

I wouldn't mind a plague of locusts.  Free food, probably better nutritional value than what I usually eat anyway.  That's the problem these days, everyone is so fussy.  Nothing wrong with locust.

Fretwired

Not sure about tradesmen .. a friend of mine owns a roofing company (basically him and his brother) and he lives in a large detached house and drives a Porsche so he must be doing OK. My youngest son is a tradesman and he makes about £80K per annum - there's plenty of demand for builders, plumbers and electricians.

I think it depends what you mean by menial jobs. If you're on benefits then fruit picking makes no sense - you'll lose benefits for working for a short period of time. And working as a waiter in a restaurant is OK if you're a student or single but if you have kids on  benefits you'll lose out.

Garthy

Nobody seems to be saying that they are a dustman or fruit picker though, while casting aspersions on others for thinking menial work is beneath them. Damn right it is beneath me, I worked in a shop for £2.50 an hour for a year, it crushed my soul so I learned a trade that paid better and had a sense of skill and pride, that trade is now dying very quickly so I am retraining to do something else and it isn't picking strawberries. By all means call be a Tory yuppy but I hope whoever is casting that stone is doing a menial job -and is happy.

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

I think the issue of immigration is a bit of a red herring. Our economy is still growing. We need immigrants. If we vote leave I bet we will still have free movement of people with the EU albeit with perhaps an upper limit. The Tories said that they wanted immigration down to 100,000 people and yet they let in 140,000 non-EU immigrants. Why? We obviously needed them. I think a points based system like Oz would be a good idea.

We used migrants to plug holes in things like the NHS rather than investing in training for non-migrants. If you use migrants in that way, all you are doing is creating a short-term improvement in economics in one area and longer-term problems in others.   

Immigration is far from a red herring. If Remain wins, then it will ratchet up those in Leave who are unhappy that immigration hasn't been a more central pillar of the official Leave campaign policy. Farage and company will see that failure by Leave as proof that the establishment doesn't get it. If Leave wins, then the pressure to tighten the borders is going to be there. Far from being a red herring, immigration is more like the shark that hasn't really bitten yet during this election.  

It's a red herring as total net immigration is 330,000 of which EU migration is only 180,000. Most of the medical staff coming into the NHS are from non-EU countries as are most of the people who take low paid jobs. Why hasn't the government done anything about the non-EU migration which for a few years was higher? I don't know either - I'm guessing we needed them.

And 1 million more Britons are in work and 850,000 more Europeans are working in the UK since David Cameron became prime minister, so the EU migrants aren't stealing our jobs. More than 60% of new migrants from western and southern Europe, who account for 900,000 of the 2 million who work here, are now university graduates. For eastern Europeans, 25% are graduates – similar to the proportion in the UK-born workforce.

And no, they are not all working as baristas in coffee shops. Britain is managing to attract the highest number of university-educated migrants of any country in the EU year after year to work in the financial, technology and media industries.

The latest figures show that while there are 2 million EU citizens working in the UK, there were a further 91,700 – or 4.5% – who were claiming out-of-work benefits last summer. A further 317,000 of the 2 million – around 15% – were claiming tax credits, underlining that the overwhelming majority are not in the lowest paid jobs.

Hitting EU migration could damage the economy as clearly there are highly paid skilled jobs available in the UK.

Drew_TNBD

Heartfeltdawn

Drew_fx said:Was chatting last night to my Japanese family, and basically they're of the opinion that English people think picking strawberries in a tent is below them.

I tried to explain to them that the self-esteem movement of the 80's and 90's totally fucked our expectations. We all want to be rockstars and lawyers and bankers and high-flying big-time career bitches. No-one wants to be a simple worker or tradesman anymore. They think it's beneath them. At least I think there is a grain of truth to that.

I think that's something truth in that once Blair got into power for the UK. Willis being America has a better grasp on America in the 80's and 90's but I don't think his general view works for the UK. The self-esteem movement certainly wasn't in operation in my schools, neither in Hertfordshire or Wiltshire. 

Several points really: 

A lot of people can't imagine being a simple worker because those jobs don't exist here any longer. The Wiltshire town I grew up in had some manufacturing there when I was at school. I like most of my friends did summer holiday work in the pie factory. Some did packaging work with Peter Black. Neither of those places exist there now. At least half of the factories and manufacturing places around my way from food to cement production have been closed for a minimum of five years. Some like Dyson fucked off overseas. Cadburys in Keynsham closed five years ago and production moved to Poland. 

At the same time as the old simple worker job market started shrinking, so the service industry rose. Simple workers now do coffee shops instead of manual labour. They have to greet people and hold baskets in supermarkets instead of working with steel. I fucking loved working in a pie factory, getting covered in dough and food, and smelling like shit: I'd cut off my balls using the sharp papercut edge of Now magazine before becoming a supermarket greeter. There was some feeling of achievement racking up trays of food and lifting heavy things for eight hours a day: I can't imagine there is any sense of worth with being a corporate retail worker. 

 

Fretwired

Drew_fx said:

Very good ...

Sambostar

I would vote to stay in the EU on three or four conditions:

We end all benefits to everyone, including tax credits, housing benefit and unemployment benefit.

We privatise the NHS and introduce mandatory private health insurance premiums

Anyone seeking work needs a minimum of 5 Grade E GCSE's, with a minimum of Grade D in English, which if they are a non UK national and over 16, must fund themselves.

Now if the remain camp turned around and agreed with that, it'd be great, but the remain camp are also the ones who are most fiercely against these things.

I don't want these things to happen, but of we stay in the EU, they will have to happen.

In the horticultural industry as many Brits are working as EU nationals and I agree, menial work is a stepping stone, no one wants to stay in menial work all their lives, but it doesn't hurt for a few years though.  There are that many kids who go straight to University without ever having worked straight into a half decent job it's scary, but then again, there are that many with English Lit degrees that end up working as odd job men and plenty who still get any security or agricultural or temping factory work that they can.

A lot of the problem is our governments.

Sambostar

Love the way they say the Pound is diving due to recent Polls

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

In fairness I was talking about economists in general, not just those forecasting remain. There's insufficient data to create any meaningful forecast for either camp. I said the issue is about sovereignty and who rules the UK and whether you want to be part of an EU superstate.

The EU are heading towards economic, financial and political integration. The Euro was the first step along this road. You seem to be saying that we can have all the benefits of EU membership without having to take the Euro. 
 

I didn't say that at all. I said that it would be political suicide for any politician to dare to take us into it right now. That's not communicating any belief of mine vis a vis a single currency, it's purely an observation on that it would be a career ending move for a Prime Minister to try to take us into it. After so much anti-EU scaremongering, everything in the years from the curve of cucumbers to "We're going to get 3 million Bulgarians invading", trying to get the electorate to embrace changing their currency would be a close to impossible act. The voters wouldn't buy it. If a referendum were held tomorrow on whether to stick with the Pound or to adopt the Euro, I am confident of a massive turnout (the Danish had an 80%+ turnout on this matter in the past) and I am equally confident of a resounding arsekicking for the Euro. You might as well ask the electorate if they're happy replacing HRH with one of the birds from Abba

Now from a rational position then yes, it would indeed make sense for us to adopt the Euro and to have a greater say in matters. 

johnnyurq

Drew_fx said:

Why do the Irish and Scots constantly go on about the differences between Prods and Caffs ?? They're both shite to me!

My word that is a nasty big sweeping generalisationand you will actually find a subset of Scots called football supporters that live in the Central belt ad also give a rat's ass about Religion are like that. I suspect the same is true in Ireleand.

Outside that Central bubble and non football/religion supporters not very many give a flying fuck about it. That would also be the overwhelming majority of folks in Scotland that could care less.

Facts please or checkable provable citations lol.
:P

Drew_TNBD

Aye. It was a generalisation. I said as much in my follow up.

johnnyurq

Drew_fx said:

UnclePsychosis said:

Drew_fx;1092107" said:

Why do the Irish and Scots constantly go on about the differences between Prods and Caffs ?? They're both shite to me!

In Scotland at least it's become almost entirely a tribal thing and nothing much to do with religious belief. In the past I think there was more actual God involved.

Moronic Old Firm supporters (and a select other few) use it as another excuse to hate each other. However, if you asked any of them detailed questions about Catholicism or what really happened in Irish history (Sevco supporters are fond of King Billy, for some reason or other) almost none of them have a clue.

It's utterly tragic behaviour and shames us all.

I should clarify too that I'm talking about Scots and Irish people that live here in London!! It's fucking nuts. As you say though, tribal bullshit.

So pretty much all Weegies and some simlar from Edinburgh then. We maybe have the odd few here in my bit and loads of other parts but folks are mostly as bemused as you about it. I also agree tribal bullshit like we are witnessing on this now very long discussion.

I see loads of hypocrisy and tribalism here and in the real world over this referendum. Most so called facts are being used mainly to support the already held view however deeply held.

Me I am in and I base that on my gut and what little decent info there is out there, unless the leave lot come up wiht a kncokout blow not based on BS and utter falsehoods (yes I am aware innies are too and as disappointed in that) then I doubt I will be swayed.

I had hoped after the rancour of the Scottish Indyref this may have been conducted less angrily and in such a tribal fashion, but it seems we in the UK are shit at keeping referenda sensible and civil.

The worst thing is we still have a few weeks of this shite to endure. Bah!!

johnnyurq

Drew_fx said:

Aye. It was a generalisation. I said as much in my follow up.

Yeah and I acknowledge it in my follow up as I hadn't gotten down to it yet. As I said I would bet the vast majority fall into the criteria  I mentioned that are down your way.

On thinking about though I would go as far to say our sectarian shite is way overcooked in the media because when you get to the facts it is really 4 teams supporters in the central belt. Ones in other areas tend to have been impoted from doo there lol.

Gassage

How anyone with half a brain can even consider leaving is beyond me. Truly.

Drew_TNBD

johnnyurq;1092525" said:

Drew_fx said:

Aye. It was a generalisation. I said as much in my follow up.










Yeah and I acknowledge it in my follow up as I hadn't gotten down to it yet. As I said I would bet the vast majority fall into the criteria  I mentioned that are down your way.



On thinking about though I would go as far to say our sectarian shite is way overcooked in the media becsaue when you get to the facts it is really 4 teams supporters in the central belt. Ones in other areas tend to have been impoted from doo there lol.

Aye agreed!

johnnyurq

Fucking nuts though and I agree it is shitty.

But then again I support neither footy or religion so it is beyond my ken anyway. Bollox so it is!!