EU Referendum Vote - Poll

Phil_aka_Pip

Drew_fx said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@Drew_fx I'm not sure you quite understood me. It's not about whether the group you observe can change. I was referring to the perception of the group from the point of view of the person outside the group, and saying that if the person outside the group were to understand them inside it by learning a little about them, then they needn't appear to be all the same.

I understood you perfectly. You didn't understand me. I group Catholics and Protestants together under the banner of Christian idiots precisely because they both cling to the same generalised set of bullshit beliefs. I don't need to be one or the other or even part of the group to understand it. Whereas the same is not true of the Chinese.

What about Hindus? Bhuddists? Muslims? Worshippers of other "pagan deities"? They're clearly not "christian" but are they some other kind of idiot?

Another thing: No you don't need to be part of either group to understand the difference between one set and the other. But leaving aside the tribalism to which UnclePsychosis referred, I think you're minimising the significance (to them) of the differences between them. 500 years ago people (on both sides) were willing to get burned for refusal to accept the viewpoint of the "other side". Clearly it was important to them. You've just confirmed what I said, that because you don't believe in any kind of "God" they all appear equally idiotic to you. Maybe my use of the Chinese was not a good analogy. Like all analogies, it has broken down.

Drew_TNBD

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Drew_fx said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@Drew_fx I'm not sure you quite understood me. It's not about whether the group you observe can change. I was referring to the perception of the group from the point of view of the person outside the group, and saying that if the person outside the group were to understand them inside it by learning a little about them, then they needn't appear to be all the same.

I understood you perfectly. You didn't understand me. I group Catholics and Protestants together under the banner of Christian idiots precisely because they both cling to the same generalised set of bullshit beliefs. I don't need to be one or the other or even part of the group to understand it. Whereas the same is not true of the Chinese.

What about Hindus? Bhuddists? Muslims? Worshippers of other "pagan deities"? They're clearly not "christian" but are they some other kind of idiot?

Yes.

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

This debate is simple. Who do you want to govern the UK? Do you want to be part of an EU superstate and do you want the Euro? If we remain we will have to dump the pound and take the Euro to stay at the centre of the EU's decision making machinery - we will be stuck bailing out the likes of Greece, Spain and Portugal. These are facts. Greece will need a bailout in the Autumn.

I don't want the Euro. We don't have the Euro. We will never have the Euro. No politician would dare bring in the Euro. 

All EU members will have to commit to the Euro by 2020. All new members will have to move to the Euro before they can become full members. Economic and political integration requires a member country to have the Euro. It's non-negotiable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10935617/After-2020-all-EU-members-will-have-to-adopt-the-euro.html

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/uk-will-be-forced-join-euro-leave-eu-if-brussels-power-not-reformed-says-report-1453735

Heartfeltdawn

Drew_fx said:And you know what is weird - a good chunk of my friends are not British, nor English. Most of them are Japanese or European - Spanish, Italian, French, Polish.

There is only one guy who would vote remain if he could. The rest of them think that the UK should leave.I find that kind of odd.

How do you think your friends would react if Leave won and the migration barriers were put up and they were told to get out? I've had conversations with European friends who have come here to live and work who operate on a Leave ticket. 

Drew_TNBD

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_fx said:And you know what is weird - a good chunk of my friends are not British, nor English. Most of them are Japanese or European - Spanish, Italian, French, Polish.

There is only one guy who would vote remain if he could. The rest of them think that the UK should leave.I find that kind of odd.

How do you think your friends would react if Leave won and the migration barriers were put up and they were told to get out? I've had conversations with European friends who have come here to live and work who operate on a Leave ticket. 

It's a fair question. The first thing my wife said when I said I was thinking about voting Leave was whether she'd have to leave the UK - she isn't a citizen. But on the whole they don't think it will happen. And it seems like the "experts" don't either:
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21652356-even-if-britain-votes-leave-eu-its-european-migrants-may-stick-around-what-will-become

Axe_meister

If we vote to stay in the. I recon there will be another referendum in 2020 in regards to the euro, which will defiantly swing the the barometer to leave.

Fretwired

Drew_fx said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_fx said:And you know what is weird - a good chunk of my friends are not British, nor English. Most of them are Japanese or European - Spanish, Italian, French, Polish.

There is only one guy who would vote remain if he could. The rest of them think that the UK should leave.I find that kind of odd.

How do you think your friends would react if Leave won and the migration barriers were put up and they were told to get out? I've had conversations with European friends who have come here to live and work who operate on a Leave ticket. 

It's a fair question. The first thing my wife said when I said I was thinking about voting Leave was whether she'd have to leave the UK - she isn't a citizen. But on the whole they don't think it will happen. And it seems like the "experts" don't either:
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21652356-even-if-britain-votes-leave-eu-its-european-migrants-may-stick-around-what-will-become

I think the issue of immigration is a bit of a red herring. Our economy is still growing. We need immigrants. If we vote leave I bet we will still have free movement of people with the EU albeit with perhaps an upper limit. The Tories said that they wanted immigration down to 100,000 people and yet they let in 140,000 non-EU immigrants. Why? We obviously needed them. I think a points based system like Oz would be a good idea.

I can't see anyone who is already here getting thrown out unless they are a threat to security. Not even the most fervent Brexiteer is saying this - it would be too damaging to our economy and image abroad.

Phil_aka_Pip

Drew_fx said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Drew_fx said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@Drew_fx I'm not sure you quite understood me. It's not about whether the group you observe can change. I was referring to the perception of the group from the point of view of the person outside the group, and saying that if the person outside the group were to understand them inside it by learning a little about them, then they needn't appear to be all the same.

I understood you perfectly. You didn't understand me. I group Catholics and Protestants together under the banner of Christian idiots precisely because they both cling to the same generalised set of bullshit beliefs. I don't need to be one or the other or even part of the group to understand it. Whereas the same is not true of the Chinese.

What about Hindus? Bhuddists? Muslims? Worshippers of other "pagan deities"? They're clearly not "christian" but are they some other kind of idiot?

Yes.

OK, that at least sounds consistent. Would you care to comment on the other bit?

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

All EU members will have to commit to the Euro by 2020. All new members will have to move to the Euro before they can become full members. Economic and political integration requires a member country to have the Euro. It's non-negotiable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10935617/After-2020-all-EU-members-will-have-to-adopt-the-euro.html

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/uk-will-be-forced-join-euro-leave-eu-if-brussels-power-not-reformed-says-report-1453735

Fuck new member countries. I'm talking about us. There is no way in the world any politician would dare take us into the Euro in the current climate. It would be complete political suicide. Even a gimp like Brown didn't do it. 

On the previous page, you said the economics experts backing Remain can fuck off and are irrelevant. Now here you are pulling out Andrew Lilico's words. Is he not an irrelevant expert? He was commissioned by Business for Britain, an organisation on the out side of things with a strong Taxpayers Alliance to write a report. That report is mentioned in your IBTimes link. So tell me how he doesn't have a vested interest? He's hardly going to write a pro-Euro report for BfB now, is he? 

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

I think the issue of immigration is a bit of a red herring. Our economy is still growing. We need immigrants. If we vote leave I bet we will still have free movement of people with the EU albeit with perhaps an upper limit. The Tories said that they wanted immigration down to 100,000 people and yet they let in 140,000 non-EU immigrants. Why? We obviously needed them. I think a points based system like Oz would be a good idea.

We used migrants to plug holes in things like the NHS rather than investing in training for non-migrants. If you use migrants in that way, all you are doing is creating a short-term improvement in economics in one area and longer-term problems in others.   

Immigration is far from a red herring. If Remain wins, then it will ratchet up those in Leave who are unhappy that immigration hasn't been a more central pillar of the official Leave campaign policy. Farage and company will see that failure by Leave as proof that the establishment doesn't get it. If Leave wins, then the pressure to tighten the borders is going to be there. Far from being a red herring, immigration is more like the shark that hasn't really bitten yet during this election.  

Heartfeltdawn

Drew_fx said:

It's a fair question. The first thing my wife said when I said I was thinking about voting Leave was whether she'd have to leave the UK - she isn't a citizen. But on the whole they don't think it will happen. And it seems like the "experts" don't either:
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21652356-even-if-britain-votes-leave-eu-its-european-migrants-may-stick-around-what-will-become

It'd be interesting to see what does happen. I remember Toronto had a lot of undocumented migrants in the construction industry. Pretty sure they had a migrant amnesty program going that allowed people to be set up with visas etc if they continued to work in the construction industry. Boris talked of amnesties in the past when serving as London mayor but I don't think he'd have the balls to put his weight behind such a scheme now. 

Drew_TNBD

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Drew_fx said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Drew_fx said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@Drew_fx I'm not sure you quite understood me. It's not about whether the group you observe can change. I was referring to the perception of the group from the point of view of the person outside the group, and saying that if the person outside the group were to understand them inside it by learning a little about them, then they needn't appear to be all the same.

I understood you perfectly. You didn't understand me. I group Catholics and Protestants together under the banner of Christian idiots precisely because they both cling to the same generalised set of bullshit beliefs. I don't need to be one or the other or even part of the group to understand it. Whereas the same is not true of the Chinese.

What about Hindus? Bhuddists? Muslims? Worshippers of other "pagan deities"? They're clearly not "christian" but are they some other kind of idiot?

Yes.

OK, that at least sounds consistent. Would you care to comment on the other bit?

Nope.

Drew_TNBD

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_fx said:

It's a fair question. The first thing my wife said when I said I was thinking about voting Leave was whether she'd have to leave the UK - she isn't a citizen. But on the whole they don't think it will happen. And it seems like the "experts" don't either:
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21652356-even-if-britain-votes-leave-eu-its-european-migrants-may-stick-around-what-will-become

It'd be interesting to see what does happen. I remember Toronto had a lot of undocumented migrants in the construction industry. Pretty sure they had a migrant amnesty program going that allowed people to be set up with visas etc if they continued to work in the construction industry. Boris talked of amnesties in the past when serving as London mayor but I don't think he'd have the balls to put his weight behind such a scheme now. 

Was chatting last night to my Japanese family, and basically they're of the opinion that English people think picking strawberries in a tent is below them.

I tried to explain to them that the self-esteem movement of the 80's and 90's totally fucked our expectations. We all want to be rockstars and lawyers and bankers and high-flying big-time career bitches.

No-one wants to be a simple worker or tradesman anymore. They think it's beneath them.

At least I think there is a grain of truth to that.

Sambostar

Drew_fx said:

No-one wants to be a simple worker or tradesman anymore. They think it's beneath them.

Speak for yourself. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csv1wXOr5tY

Phil_aka_Pip

Drew_fx said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Drew_fx said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Drew_fx said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@Drew_fx I'm not sure you quite understood me. It's not about whether the group you observe can change. I was referring to the perception of the group from the point of view of the person outside the group, and saying that if the person outside the group were to understand them inside it by learning a little about them, then they needn't appear to be all the same.

I understood you perfectly. You didn't understand me. I group Catholics and Protestants together under the banner of Christian idiots precisely because they both cling to the same generalised set of bullshit beliefs. I don't need to be one or the other or even part of the group to understand it. Whereas the same is not true of the Chinese.

What about Hindus? Bhuddists? Muslims? Worshippers of other "pagan deities"? They're clearly not "christian" but are they some other kind of idiot?

Yes.

OK, that at least sounds consistent. Would you care to comment on the other bit?

Nope.

Your choice Drew.

BTW I think you're right about not wanting to do "menial" work as a result of the 1980s "self-esteem" thing. Or at least the effects. I think it was down to Thatcher shitting on heavy industry and manufacturing in general and letting us all think that the yuppie red braces thing was the only thing to aspire to.

Drew_TNBD

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Drew_fx said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Drew_fx said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Drew_fx said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@Drew_fx I'm not sure you quite understood me. It's not about whether the group you observe can change. I was referring to the perception of the group from the point of view of the person outside the group, and saying that if the person outside the group were to understand them inside it by learning a little about them, then they needn't appear to be all the same.

I understood you perfectly. You didn't understand me. I group Catholics and Protestants together under the banner of Christian idiots precisely because they both cling to the same generalised set of bullshit beliefs. I don't need to be one or the other or even part of the group to understand it. Whereas the same is not true of the Chinese.

What about Hindus? Bhuddists? Muslims? Worshippers of other "pagan deities"? They're clearly not "christian" but are they some other kind of idiot?

Yes.

OK, that at least sounds consistent. Would you care to comment on the other bit?

Nope.

Your choice Drew.

BTW I think you're right about not wanting to do "menial" work as a result of the 1980s "self-esteem" thing. Or at least the effects. I think it was down to Thatcher shitting on heavy industry and manufacturing in general and letting us all think that the yuppie red braces thing was the only thing to aspire to.

Nowt to do with Thatcher mate. Read this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Snowflake-Effect-Trey-Willis/dp/1499795424

Whitecat

Remain

Sambostar

It got lost on me, I must have been like Charlie Sheen in Platoon or something.  Luckily I was raised a republican, a bit foreign and classless as possible which must of helped.  All I ever wanted to do is something that made sense and was honest.  I remember looking at yuppies at the time and thinking what a big bunch of wankers.  I still, even to this day, find it hard to believe that the whole yuppie thing became mainstream culture, it's kind of incredulous. Unfortunately it's all about the housing market and Blair's promises but they we go.  Problem is our entire economy hinges on house prices these days and everything is secured against them, it's all we have, it's a work of fiction.  I don't give a fuck,  it'll come crashing down sooner or later.  Sooner is better than later, so we can start again, it's going to hurt either which way.  At least of we stop it now we stand half a chance or rebuilding up from the ashes.  There are still plenty of people willing to work for sod all in return, millions of them.  I wouldn't believe all the Daily Mail bullshit.  But people voting to remain to protect their own really, really grates me if I'm honest.  These are the ones I'II deport in place of Eastern Europeans that are willing to work for a living when I become Chancellor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMIbP3XLhBc

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

All EU members will have to commit to the Euro by 2020. All new members will have to move to the Euro before they can become full members. Economic and political integration requires a member country to have the Euro. It's non-negotiable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10935617/After-2020-all-EU-members-will-have-to-adopt-the-euro.html

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/uk-will-be-forced-join-euro-leave-eu-if-brussels-power-not-reformed-says-report-1453735

Fuck new member countries. I'm talking about us. There is no way in the world any politician would dare take us into the Euro in the current climate. It would be complete political suicide. Even a gimp like Brown didn't do it. 

On the previous page, you said the economics experts backing Remain can fuck off and are irrelevant. Now here you are pulling out Andrew Lilico's words. Is he not an irrelevant expert? He was commissioned by Business for Britain, an organisation on the out side of things with a strong Taxpayers Alliance to write a report. That report is mentioned in your IBTimes link. So tell me how he doesn't have a vested interest? He's hardly going to write a pro-Euro report for BfB now, is he? 

In fairness I was talking about economists in general, not just those forecasting remain. There's insufficient data to create any meaningful forecast for either camp. I said the issue is about sovereignty and who rules the UK and whether you want to be part of an EU superstate.

The EU are heading towards economic, financial and political integration. The Euro was the first step along this road. You seem to be saying that we can have all the benefits of EU membership without having to take the Euro. This is clearly nonsense as the EU's economic and fiscal policy will be dictated by the needs of the Eurozone. By remaining outside the Eurozone we won't have a say - this happens already. The UK doesn't attend Eurozone finance ministers meetings.

If we vote to remain then I think we should take the Euro. At least we'd be at the centre of the European project and can influence what happens.

 

PC_Dave

Drew_fx;1091994" said:

If I could cause a plague of locusts to attack every single person on this website, I would do it twice over and laugh both times. This website is the epitome of linguistic cancer. I'm just here to enjoy the fireworks.

That's not very nice.