EU Referendum Vote - Poll

menamestom

ToneControl said:

menamestom said:

Drew_fx said:

Change is exactly what we need.

In the broader sense yes, always.  In the specifics, if that change is interest rates go up 5% and you can't afford your mortgage you probably don't want that kind of change.  If you have money to invest that would be good change.

Perhaps you could argue in any step for positive change, somebody somewhere will feel some pain and it is part of the process.

He who dares wins, as they say.

 

what if the price of remain is high interest rates when we bail out the Euro again?

I guess it could be, but the UK interest rate has been the same for 7 years, it's human nature to take this as some evidence to suggest it won't suddenly go up.

I can't believe that people think there is no risk to the UK if we remain

I can't believe that people think that pointing out there is a risk to leave means they automatically think the people pointing it out think  there is no risk in staying.

I suppose it amounts to when the risk is, leave will potentially introduce it a lot sooner.

For the record, I've not made up my mind completely, I'm just thinking how different personal circumstances may affect different peoples decisions.  Some people that may vote remain now may just do so because they are reluctant to bring about immediate uncertainty. 

Anyway, I won't labour the point anymore, it was just a thought.  No need to hit me with a load of bullet points, or tell me what I think.

ToneControl

menamestom said:

I guess it could be, but the UK interest rate has been the same for 7 years, it's human nature to take this as some evidence to suggest it won't suddenly go up.

I can't believe that people think there is no risk to the UK if we remain

I can't believe that people think that pointing out there is a risk to leave means they automatically think the people pointing it out think  there is no risk in staying.

I suppose it amounts to when the risk is, leave will potentially introduce it a lot sooner.

For the record, I've not made up my mind completely, I'm just thinking how different personal circumstances may affect different peoples decisions.  Some people that may vote remain now may just do so because they are reluctant to bring about immediate uncertainty. 

Anyway, I won't labour the point anymore, it was just a thought.  No need to hit me with a load of bullet points, or tell me what I think.

sorry, it was meant as a general point, your post just reminded me I wanted to make the point

Axe_meister

One thing for sure. Leaving will make lawyers/accountants/IT consultants very rich as every business system out there will need to be changed/patched/upgraded.
Lawyers will be fighting the unions over new regulations and accountants will be figuring out how to avoid new loopholes as older EU based loopholes get closed.
This will cost will be huge

Chalky

What is 'EU reform'?

To the French and Germans it is CLOSER union than now. This has been their policy through successive governments. They are sincere in their conviction that closer union will eventually solve all problems.

To the British it is an arms-length union at best, a friendship but not a marriage.

Saying that we can reform the EU is therefore irrational when the EU founders and owners specifically want what we specifically do not want.

Fretwired

Axe_meister said:

One thing for sure. Leaving will make lawyers/accountants/IT consultants very rich as every business system out there will need to be changed/patched/upgraded.
Lawyers will be fighting the unions over new regulations and accountants will be figuring out how to avoid new loopholes as older EU based loopholes get closed.
This will cost will be huge

Why will business systems have to be changed? Why will lawyers be fighting the Unions? Is this more FUD from Remain?

Heartfeltdawn

Fret, I've been thinking a great way about this today after yesterday. I actually agree on a points system for migration. I've said that many times. I agree on EU reform. What I don't have are people within Leave who provide me with any confidence at all. This election isn't for me. It's an election about the right wing, where they go, both Ukip and Tory. It sets up their policies and standpoints.

So I'm saying thanks to you, Mr Fret, and wish you a good day.

Drew_TNBD

Nowt to do with left-wing or right-wing.

eSully

Drew_fx;1094916" said:

Nowt to do with left-wing or right-wing.

It shouldn't be and yet some people are using it to justify their standpoint and not challenge themselves to look at the whole picture and make a genuine informed (as much as is possible in this referendum) decision. I'm not directing that at you heartfeltdawn. You've obviously looked into it and taken the other sides arguments into account). But when I see friends on Facebook post things like "I'm voting remain cause Nigel Farage wants to leave" I feel really frustrated. It's a bit fucking bigger and more in depth than not liking Nigel Farage you dick.

Heartfeltdawn

To me it is. For you it isn't. It's a very more personal election for me than normal.

Heartfeltdawn

Here's a question: anyone involved in the actual voting process? I'm clerking on the 23rd. Should be interesting comparing the turnout to the local elections last month

ToneControl

eSully said:

Drew_fx;1094916" said:

Nowt to do with left-wing or right-wing.

It shouldn't be and yet some people are using it to justify their standpoint and not challenge themselves to look at the whole picture and make a genuine informed (as much as is possible in this referendum) decision. I'm not directing that at you heartfeltdawn. You've obviously looked into it and taken the other sides arguments into account). But when I see friends on Facebook post things like "I'm voting remain cause Nigel Farage wants to leave" I feel really frustrated. It's a bit fucking bigger and more in depth than not liking Nigel Farage you dick.

yeah I've seen the same

Intelligent people saying "EDL supports leave, therefore I'll vote remain"

Drew_TNBD

Heartfeltdawn said:

To me it is. For you it isn't. It's a very more personal election for me than normal.

How so?

Living in London I seem to have more non-English non-British non-EU family and friends than I do English, British, and EU family and friends. A Japanese wife, a half-Japanese half-English kid on the way (still shitting myself), a half-Japanese and half-English niece/nephew on the way, a some-day-to-be Spanish brother-in-law, and 50% of my band are EU nationals.

I somehow manage to look past that and explicitly DON'T consider it a very personal election. The more I look into it, the more I relish the opportunity for our country to grow and prosper and I think that is eminently doable outside of the EU. We don't really stand to lose much and we have everything to gain.

eSully is exactly right when he says:

eSully said:

I see friends on Facebook post things like "I'm voting remain cause Nigel Farage wants to leave" I feel really frustrated. It's a bit fucking bigger and more in depth than not liking Nigel Farage you dick.

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

To me it is. For you it isn't. It's a very more personal election for me than normal.

@Heartfeltdawn ... it's nice to have a debate that doesn't descend into infantile name calling. If you want to vote Remain that's fine by me. We live in a democracy and we should always support free speech and freedom of thought. It would be a boring place if we all agreed and thought and said the same things .. on second thoughts we'd be in Belgium.

For me economics don't matter - the EU can't control the world economy and a fall in house prices might help some people. It's about sovereignty and not wanting to be subsumed into a giant EUSR/USE with over 500 million other people. I also think we should be able to control our borders. The Albanians who arrived by boat in Kent are claiming political asylum - there's no war or famine in Albania so why is this being allowed? They've been interviewed, fed and let go so they are now in the community. We have no idea who they are or whether they are criminals. Bonkers.

Emp_Fab

I've given my take on it previously, but to be honest, I"m just bored of the status quo. Sometimes you've just got to say "fuck it" and jump in head first and see what happens. A little revolution now and then is a good thing.

Heartfeltdawn

Drew, I'm saying it is for me. I totally get that it is different for you and that's fine with me. It's all about me and how I fit in with this election. With national and local elections, there's been an obvious path for me but there isn't here. That's why I say it's a personal election, not for everyone, but for me. Which moves on this...

Fret, I am hugely torn. I don't want to vote Remain. The EU needs reform. Migration needs to be addressed for reasons I've mentioned before relating to what I saw in Canada over a decade ago. Finances need changing, tax havens, business structures, you name it. Six weeks ago I was sure I'd vote Leave. Now...now my wariness is based on some of those associated with Leave. Seeing the poll boost since migration became a big point is worrying. It boils down to not believing Cameron and Gobby could get a decent EU reform going and not wanting to back Leave as that would legitimise a Gove or Boris run for next Tory leader.

This is why it's such a hard election for me. I have two choices, both have major flaws. My first vote was 1997: I've never had a vote before where I felt so conflicted.

In the end, it may well be the case of voting for Leave purely because it will mean change, for good or for worse. TTony's post the other day was very good and echoed a lot of my thoughts

I will disagree about this whole Remain are liars and Leave are the truth mongers palaver but that's beside the point. A vote for Leave isn't a vote for Boris, it's a vote for change. The real battle comes in 2020.

So let's say I'm 75% out 25% remain now. :P

Drew_TNBD

Heartfeltdawn said:

A vote for Leave isn't a vote for Boris, it's a vote for change.

Sort of how I'm looking at it too.

A vote for leave isn't a vote for Boris, Farage, McKenzie, or any of the other nutters. Actually I consider it one of the more optimistic things I am intending to do within the next week or so!

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

I will disagree about this whole Remain are liars and Leave are the truth mongers palaver but that's beside the point. A vote for Leave isn't a vote for Boris, it's a vote for change. The real battle comes in 2020.

Both sides are lying, as is Corbyn as you can tell he'd really like to vote to leave as well. If it's sunny on polling day we'll remain. If it's pouring with rain we'll leave. I'm surprised Cameron hasn't pulled a stunt by making polling day a bank holiday.

Heartfeltdawn

I wonder if this is how US presidential elections are. A lot of voters there vote on issues and have to overcome the feeling of voting for specific nut baskets. Wis'd, Mr D.

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired;1095020" said:

Both sides are lying, as is Corbyn as you can tell he'd really like to vote to leave as well. If it's sunny on polling day we'll remain. If it's pouring with rain we'll leave. I'm surprised Cameron hasn't pulled a stunt by making polling day a bank holiday.

Agreed. And it will be sunny just like last month. 15 hours in a Scout hut in the sun...

At the elections last month here in Bristol, a lot of local Tories were really pushing for votes to be held on a Bank Holiday as they believed it would get more people out to the ballot box. None of them considered the fact that all clerks, ballot officers, presiding officers etc would be on double time for working for the state on a state holiday. The three staff members in my station were costing 500 quid roughly for the day. There were 212 stations in total. When this figure was given to the debating gents in question who were then asked to double that figure for working on a Bank Holiday, they rather dropped their line of argument.

Axe_meister

Fretwired said:

Axe_meister said:

One thing for sure. Leaving will make lawyers/accountants/IT consultants very rich as every business system out there will need to be changed/patched/upgraded.
Lawyers will be fighting the unions over new regulations and accountants will be figuring out how to avoid new loopholes as older EU based loopholes get closed.
This will cost will be huge

Why will business systems have to be changed? Why will lawyers be fighting the Unions? Is this more FUD from Remain?

Not FUD just a fact of life.

Any massive change in regulations (which is one of the points of leaving the EU), ends up costing companies money in IT.

Also the unions quite like a  lot of the EU working regulations, which may well be changed after a Brexit to make us more competitive, the unions won't like it.

Any why the aggression, I was just pointing out one aspect of leaving the EU, and something I have experience of. Why can't we discuss points of view without an immediate shout of FUD/Lies just because it contradicts your point of view.