EU Referendum Vote - Poll

Fretwired

@Cirrus .. I accept what you say, but the experts are arguing from a standpoint based on where the EU is today. The EU is a journey .. it is constantly evolving and there hasn't been much detail from Remain on where we might be in 10 years time with an enlarged EU focused on the needs of the Eurozone countries. If Britain fails to adopt the Euro will be be marginalised - we won't have a seat at the top table. I can see us talking the Euro - Tony Blair has said as much. Not much from Remain though - opt outs and vetos won't last forever.

Reports from Germany suggest the EU is looking to remove vetos from trade deals which means Cameron couldn't veto TTIP .. http://www.cpbml.org.uk/news/eu-moves-remove-national-vetoes-trade-deals

On the ECJ - I don't care what the ECJ thinks. HMRC had a reason for charging the VAT which was backed by a British court. That should have been the end of it. Large corporations with deep pockets will probably think it worth their while to pursue court action in Europe over what they see as unfair taxation.

Sporky

Fretwired said:

there hasn't been much detail from Remain on where we might be in 10 years time

Nor from Leave, except that we'll all have a pet unicorn and everything, without exception, will be awesome.

Fretwired

Sporky said:

Fretwired said:

there hasn't been much detail from Remain on where we might be in 10 years time

Nor from Leave, except that we'll all have a pet unicorn and everything, without exception, will be awesome.

Typical Remain response .. I hope you like living on Airstrip One governed by your unelected EU leaders - EUspeak will be the order of the day. The news bulletins will be like this ..

quarky

Sporky said:

Fretwired said:

there hasn't been much detail from Remain on where we might be in 10 years time

Nor from Leave, except that we'll all have a pet unicorn and everything, without exception, will be awesome.

The leave camp might not have the answers, but they haven't been running the country ,and are not going to.

The difference is, the pro-remain Government, and the pro-remain opposition who were in power previously, haven't dealt with, and have shown no interest in dealing with capacity issues on roads, trains, schools, housing, NHS, water, power, and the list goes on. All of which are problems well known to successive governments. And successive government action is actually making those issues more acute, not less.

So we either continue in a situation which is obviously *not* under control (to be generous), or we take the option to go down a different path where perhaps we can.

As I said before, anyone who votes remain tomorrow has no right to complain about a shortage of any of those things for them or their children in the future.

FX_Munkee

quarky said:

Sporky said:

Fretwired said:

there hasn't been much detail from Remain on where we might be in 10 years time

Nor from Leave, except that we'll all have a pet unicorn and everything, without exception, will be awesome.

The leave camp might not have the answers, but they haven't been running the country ,and are not going to.

The difference is, the pro-remain Government, and the pro-remain opposition who were in power previously, haven't dealt with, and have shown no interest in dealing with capacity issues on roads, trains, schools, housing, NHS, water, power, and the list goes on. All of which are problems well known to successive governments. And successive government action is actually making those issues more acute, not less.

So we either continue in a situation which is obviously *not* under control (to be generous), or we take the option to go down a different path where perhaps we can.

As I said before, anyone who votes remain tomorrow has no right to complain about a shortage of any of those things for them or their children in the future.

What has any of that got to do with remaining in the EU? It's all UK government issues??

fretmeister

Prof Douban completing the lecture he gave the other day

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/20/eu-law-expert-responds-industrial-dishonesty-video-goes-viral/

Skipped

I am seeing comments on an entertainment forum elsewhere.....people attacking the bereaved family.......calling it Grief Porn.......saying that it is "convenient" that the kids are so cute.

I cannot believe what I am reading.

I think that social historians will be looking at this stuff 100 years from now and then showing school children what casual hate looks like.
I am hearing that it is even worse on Twitter. Right now. 
:-O

StanleyAccrington

Hours to go before voting...and I'm still undecided. I won't abstain so I'm looking for any last minute information that might sway me.

quarky

FX_Munkee said:

What has any of that got to do with remaining in the EU? It's all UK government issues??

Because the UK has no control over demand while we are in the EU.

Sporky

quarky said:

As I said before, anyone who votes remain tomorrow has no right to complain about a shortage of any of those things for them or their children in the future.

Nonsense. That'd be like me saying that anyone who votes leave tomorrow has no right to complain about the EU thereafter. You don't get to decide what people are allowed to comment on.

As for Fret's North Korea (I assume) video, and the still-untrue assertion that the EU are unelected, it's hardly worth responding. Other than to parody his comment - a typical leave reaction.

Skipped

My perception is that we have not heard enough about interest rates.

I think I am correct in saying that the average mortgage rate over the past few decades is about 5%.
So.....If the markets were spooked by a Brexit.....for 2 years......I presume that the mortgage rate during this period (the markets hate uncertainty) would not be the  "average rate" in recent history - 5%.
It would be much worse than that??

Myranda

quarky said:

Sporky said:

Fretwired said:

there hasn't been much detail from Remain on where we might be in 10 years time

Nor from Leave, except that we'll all have a pet unicorn and everything, without exception, will be awesome.

The leave camp might not have the answers, but they haven't been running the country ,and are not going to.

The difference is, the pro-remain Government, and the pro-remain opposition who were in power previously, haven't dealt with, and have shown no interest in dealing with capacity issues on roads, trains, schools, housing, NHS, water, power, and the list goes on. All of which are problems well known to successive governments. And successive government action is actually making those issues more acute, not less.

So we either continue in a situation which is obviously *not* under control (to be generous), or we take the option to go down a different path where perhaps we can.

As I said before, anyone who votes remain tomorrow has no right to complain about a shortage of any of those things for them or their children in the future.

There has never been any EU regulation preventing the maintenance of roads. Or preventing trains from running on time. They have not screwed up our Education system... etc etc.

While it's easy to blame the corporate focused EU for everything wrong with the world, the Conservatives are in power, and without the EU do you really think they'll suddenly embrace Free Love? They're still the conservatives, and the closest opposition is still Labour. Who do you think will be the driving force for change after leaving? 

The EU does not write our laws, or teach our children, or build our roads... we fucked those things up, and without the EU we will continue to do so.

As for the NHS, I suspect that the number of immigrant workers the Leave campaign want to kick out will render the organisation completely understaffed ... it might cost money and you might think leaving the EU will make the difference financially, but without nurses and doctors there's nothing to pay for in the first place.

The Leave campaign implies that 400 trillion people in Britain are polish welfare cheats, who both don't work AND steal all our jobs... but when they leave, who will do our plumbing? After all, when all the EU citizens are forcefully evicted we'll have a population just shy of negative 400 trillion people. I can't do plumbing, and doubt Nigel and Boris can either. ;-)

Sporky

I am very glad I paid off my mortgage this year.

quarky

Sporky said:

quarky said:

As I said before, anyone who votes remain tomorrow has no right to complain about a shortage of any of those things for them or their children in the future.

Nonsense. That'd be like me saying that anyone who votes leave tomorrow has no right to complain about the EU thereafter. You don't get to decide what people are allowed to comment on.

Course not, it is only my opinion. But I will have less sympathy for people who vote remain and then whinge about those things in the future, when they at least had a chance to make a difference. Everyone of course has the right to vote/think that they like.

Sporky

quarky said:

Course not, it is only my opinion. But I will have less sympathy for people who vote remain and then whinge about those things in the future, when they at least had a chance to make a difference. Everyone of course has the right to vote/think that they like.

But those aren't EU things, and this isn't a general election. This has nothing to do with the state of the roads, though the leaders of the leave campaign all seem to be in favour of privatising/destroying the NHS.

quarky

Myranda said:

There has never been any EU regulation preventing the maintenance of roads. Or preventing trains from running on time. They have not screwed up our Education system... etc etc.

While it's easy to blame the corporate focused EU for everything wrong with the world, the Conservatives are in power, and without the EU do you really think they'll suddenly embrace Free Love? They're still the conservatives, and the closest opposition is still Labour. Who do you think will be the driving force for change after leaving? 

The EU does not write our laws, or teach our children, or build our roads... we fucked those things up, and without the EU we will continue to do so.

As for the NHS, I suspect that the number of immigrant workers the Leave campaign want to kick out will render the organisation completely understaffed ... it might cost money and you might think leaving the EU will make the difference financially, but without nurses and doctors there's nothing to pay for in the first place.

The Leave campaign implies that 400 trillion people in Britain are polish welfare cheats, who both don't work AND steal all our jobs... but when they leave, who will do our plumbing? After all, when all the EU citizens are forcefully evicted we'll have a population just shy of negative 400 trillion people. I can't do plumbing, and doubt Nigel and Boris can either. ;-)

Whoa, back up the assumption train a few stops.

I am talking about the laws of supply and demand, OK, if close to left on the sliding scale, you might not be convinced by it, but it has been shown to be fairly effective in reality.

No idea why you are talking about kicking people out, or Polish being benefit scroungers. I haven't said anything like that, but I am use to the insinuations

quarky

Sporky said:

quarky said:

Course not, it is only my opinion. But I will have less sympathy for people who vote remain and then whinge about those things in the future, when they at least had a chance to make a difference. Everyone of course has the right to vote/think that they like.

But those aren't EU things, and this isn't a general election. This has nothing to do with the state of the roads, though the leaders of the leave campaign all seem to be in favour of privatising/destroying the NHS.

As I wrote to Myranda, it is about supply and demand, and in the EU we can't effectively control demand. And actually, Labour started privatisation of the NHS, and they are officially in the remain camp. Where do these assumptions come from?

quarky

Skipped said:

My perception is that we have not heard enough about interest rates.

I think I am correct in saying that the average mortgage rate over the past few decades is about 5%.
So.....If the markets were spooked by a Brexit.....for 2 years......I presume that the mortgage rate during this period (the markets hate uncertainty) would not be the  "average rate" in recent history - 5%.
It would be much worse than that??

Very unlikely. No major economy has rates close to that. If we leave, rates may need to go up to support the pound (depending on how far it drops), or they may go down to support the economy. Or they may go up to slow down the economy, or they may go down to compete with all the other nations that are trying to weaken their currencies too.

Sporky

quarky said:

As I wrote to Myranda, it is about supply and demand, and in the EU we can't effectively control demand. And actually, Labour started privatisation of the NHS, and they are officially in the remain camp. Where do these assumptions come from?

But non-EU immigration is higher than EU immigration.

quarky

But if we can't control EU migration, that doesn't matter. It is like trying to stop a sink filling up if you can only control one tap. Or do you think we actually can?

Given the number of NINO's though, any figures on EU migration have to be taken with a huge pinch of salt.