EU Referendum Vote - Poll

Fretwired

fretmeister said:

Just in case anyone has missed it.

The Good Friday Peace agreement REQUIRES the continuing application of the Convention on Human Rights.

Leaving the convention will breach the Good Friday agreement automatically.

Interesting .. I didn't know that .. thanks for sharing.

fretmeister

I would guess that 99% of all people commenting on the various parts of the Human Rights legislation have never actually read the Act.

Here is a very good summary with an explanation as to what would need to be addressed before it could be repealed. 

http://jackofkent.com/2015/05/the-seven-hurdles-for-repeal-of-the-human-rights-act/

There is an awful lot of crap spouted about "British laws drafted by British people" type nonsense. Usually with claims that "them" over there are drafting our (for example) 'elf & safteee law'

This is demonstrably bollocks.

Using Workers Rights as a simple example. The Convention merely provides a framework and an over-riding objective. It is up to the individual states to decide how best to comply with the over-riding objective.

If it was true (it isn't) that Brussell's writes our health and safety law then the Health & Safety At Work Act, the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations, the Working at Height Regulations, the RIDDOR regs etc etc etc would apply to the entire EU.

They don't. They apply to the UK, and in some instances to UK workers working abroad under the care of British companies.

We drafted them, we enacted them, we can amend them, we can repeal them and replace them. The only thing the Convention has to say about it, is that we must do our best to not harm our employees, must not over-work them to the point of making them sick etc.

I see nothing odious about that.

Compare that approach to IDS who thinks that workers "rights" should be flexible post Brexit

(Video)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/iain-duncan-smith-says-workers-7972803

If they are flexible, then they are not "rights" at all and are merely privileges to be taken away at will.

lloyd

I'm back to being in and think I'll stay that way.

As imperfect as the EU is today, I think the short term damage it's going to do financially, (which I think I'm right that it is going to have a negative effect?) isn't worth whatever system we come up with in the long term.

I honestly don't see the UK doing anything that different to the current set up, it'll all be much of a muchness anyway IMO.

I've said before I'd prefer to just have an economic union, but will take the other shit with it to keep what we do have.

Also, large parts of North Wales (my home town included) have benefitted from the EU's "shitty areas on the map fund" something that we'd never have been given from Westminster.

RocknRollDave

We'll just get knocked out in the next round anyway. If not in normal time, on penalties.

Fretwired

RocknRollDave said:

We'll just get knocked out in the next round anyway. If not in normal time, on penalties.

@RocknRollDave .. sure you're in the right thread ... :-)

Drew_TNBD

fretmeister said:

I would guess that 99% of all people commenting

I was explaining the argument that is made. I wasn't saying it was MY argument.

quarky

One thing that sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom is delayed gratification. Vote leave will be that. Maybe a bit of pain in the short-term, but a much better environment for the next generations.

I guess the same applies to the EU in terms of cost rises.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brussels-hides-cost-rise-until-after-referendum-8dg0pcj96

fretmeister

Mr Solipsistic said:

fretmeister said:

I would guess that 99% of all people commenting

I was explaining the argument that is made. I wasn't saying it was MY argument.

Fixed.

I wasn't responding to you.

Fretwired

@fretmeister .. as you mentioned health and safety legislation I thought that all UK law has to implement EU rules and there are a lot of them. Parliament may pass UK H&S laws but they have to include EU regulations. For example,

http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/europe/euronews/transposition-stage.htm

I'm not saying this is a bad thing as I'm no H&S expert, but it is fair to say UK law is influenced by EU law and we do negotiate on new rules.

RocknRollDave

Fretwired said:

RocknRollDave said:

We'll just get knocked out in the next round anyway. If not in normal time, on penalties.

@RocknRollDave .. sure you're in the right thread ... :-)

I'm not sure I am EVER in the right thread, to be honest...

Emp_Fab

I think I'm switching to remain for reasons similar to those Fretmeister and Lloyd mentioned. Basically, we already work the longest hours in Europe and if you asked me who do I trust more to protect worker's rights, the EU or Westminster, I know which one I'd pick. .. And it's not Lord Snooty and his pals.

Myranda

Fretwired said:

@fretmeister .. as you mentioned health and safety legislation I thought that all UK law has to implement EU rules and there are a lot of them. Parliament may pass UK H&S laws but they have to include EU regulations. For example,

http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/europe/euronews/transposition-stage.htm

I'm saying this is a bad thing as I'm no H&S expert, but it is fair to say UK law is influenced by EU law and we do negotiate on new rules.

Several years ago there was a good documentary on health and safety law.

First it pointed out the tens-of-thousands-of-lives it saved... good start, soften them up...

Then it pointed out that the EU who are blamed for every H&S law, give guidelines and suggestions. The working at height regs was the one that they started with. EU rules are a couple of paragraphs saying that ladders should be in good condition and if you build a platform to work at height (considered to be more than 2nd storey) you should give the platform a quick inspection. We got hold of that short set of instructions and turned it into rules requiring a training course to climb a ladder, forms to fill out for going up ladders, and reams of rules... 

H&S has never been about hindering people doing their jobs - and often people think "what's the point of this rule?" well... in the past without that rule people have died/been injured ... common sense isn't very common when people want to lazily finish their job.

ICBM

quarky said:

One thing that sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom is delayed gratification.

Baboons have that too. They're able to plan ahead as a group, and some members will endure risk or pain for a reward later.

quarky

ICBM said:

Baboons have that too. They're able to plan ahead as a group, and some members will endure risk or pain for a reward later.

Actually, I remember reading about crows exhibiting it too, which is even more surprising!

Sporky

I'm not surprised. Crows are good people.

Fretwired

Myranda said:

Fretwired said:

@fretmeister .. as you mentioned health and safety legislation I thought that all UK law has to implement EU rules and there are a lot of them. Parliament may pass UK H&S laws but they have to include EU regulations. For example,

http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/europe/euronews/transposition-stage.htm

I'm saying this is a bad thing as I'm no H&S expert, but it is fair to say UK law is influenced by EU law and we do negotiate on new rules.

Several years ago there was a good documentary on health and safety law.

First it pointed out the tens-of-thousands-of-lives it saved... good start, soften them up...

Then it pointed out that the EU who are blamed for every H&S law, give guidelines and suggestions. The working at height regs was the one that they started with. EU rules are a couple of paragraphs saying that ladders should be in good condition and if you build a platform to work at height (considered to be more than 2nd storey) you should give the platform a quick inspection. We got hold of that short set of instructions and turned it into rules requiring a training course to climb a ladder, forms to fill out for going up ladders, and reams of rules... 

H&S has never been about hindering people doing their jobs - and often people think "what's the point of this rule?" well... in the past without that rule people have died/been injured ... common sense isn't very common when people want to lazily finish their job.

I'm all in favour of H&S laws I was just pointing out that the EU has a big input to ensure harmonisation across the EU which is a good idea. I was responding to the fact that we make our own H&S law .. that's not strictly true ... I can't comment on the law as I'm not an expert. The fact that fewer people die on building sites today than in the 1930s shows its working.

Sporky

Does it matter whether we make our own H&S law, or does it matter much, much more whether the H&S laws we have are sensible and save lives?

strumjoughlamps

Cirrus

quarky;1120844" said:

Actually, I remember reading about crows exhibiting it too, which is even more surprising!

Birds are pretty amazing. A Grey Parrot once asked an existential question of its owner, and to date is the only non-human animal to have done that.

Fretwired

Sporky said:

Does it matter whether we make our own H&S law, or does it matter much, much more whether the H&S laws we have are sensible and save lives?

Time out on H&S law ... please. I was commenting on a comment concerning whether or not we make our own laws, or whether the EU has a hand in making UK laws - it was suggested the EU has nothing to do with influencing UK law (sounds like Sir Humphrey) and H&S was given as an example. This was about who influences UK law and not H&S law about which I know nothing.

It seems to me that an area like H&S makes sense to have common laws and rules even if we vote leave, especially with workers moving between countries.