EU Referendum Vote - Poll

UnclePsychosis

Fretwired;1119952" said:

Gove back in the government .. I think he and Boris could be shown the door. Cameron has a nasty streak and will probably want to cull the most vocal Leave campaigners while there's a chance to clean up the party before 2020. And one local MP told me that in the event Remain wins Boris is finished - won't be PM.

There's a really good chance Boris is finished anyway. The criticism of him from Tory party grandees has been utterly brutal in places, even people who are/were his friends literally called him a liar when he said he supported Brexit. I think there's a good chance that even if Leave wins nobody will trust him anyway.

Heartfeltdawn

Sporky said: Should we not be applauding anyone who manages to stop the Revenue from pillaging others' hard work?

That's what I'm thinking. There's an argument to be made that successive British governments were actively robbing from shareholders and pension funds. 

It gets even more bonkers when you consider that Littlewoods, one of the companies mentioned in the initial FT report Fret put up, was sold to the Barclay brothers aka the chaps who own the Telegraph. 

It does seem a tad odd for their newspaper to whine on about the horrors of EU law when it's EU law that forms the basis of their case against HMRC. 

Looking at the Lebara case Fret has just put up, HMRC wanted to charge two rounds of VAT, one on the sale of the card and another load once the end user had activated it. Sounds like the courts actually had a point to me. 

Clarky

after all the stuff I've read.. and struggled to make decisions based on not knowing what to trust I decided to put me first..

selfish and shitty I know but it's the only way that I've been able to come to a clear decision..

and my choice is going completely against my instincts..

hungrymark

Fretwired;1119953" said:

hungrymark said:

Fretwired;1119612" said:I have an issue with the way the EU supports and protects big business. The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) revealed that the the European Court of Justice has forced HMRC to pay back £7.87billion collected in tax from big business and will be forced to pay back a further £7.3billion before 2020. the Treasury looks set to lose ongoing court cases at the European Court of Justice, with another £35.6billion at risk. This is just outrageous but you don't hear Osborne going on about it. £36 billion is half the national deficit.







Taxes declared unlawful include corporation tax on profits distributed by a subsidiary to a parent company and stamp duty serve tax - a levy raised on electronic paperless share transactions.These taxes were approved by the UK parliament. What right has the EU got to influence our tax policy?







I bet Professor Dougan didn't mention that.

Do you have a reference for that? Interesting. Cheers.










Yes - I'll dig it out.



Sunday Times report (let me know if you can't read it)



http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1686411.ece



Report in FT:



http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4c3fcd5a-4287-11e5-9abe-5b335da3a90e.html#axzz4CEkVJHZr



Daily Mail (basically a rehash of the Times/FT article (just in case you can't read the two above due to firewalls)



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532727/UK-taxpayers-face-50bn-bill-EU-judges-overrule-tax-laws-exposing-multinationals-use-EU-courts-claw-taxes.html

Cheers, Fret.

octatonic

Watching the debate.

Sick of people saying 'an Australian style points system'.

Australia is a very inward looking, parochial, borderline-racist country and it doesn't actually work- they still have higher immigration than here.

I really wouldn't be looking towards Australia for a cohesive immigration policy.

littlegreenman

octatonic said:

Watching the debate.

Sick of people saying 'an Australian style points system'.

Australia is a very inward looking, parochial, borderline-racist country and it doesn't actually work- they still have higher immigration than here.

I really wouldn't be looking towards Australia for a cohesive immigration policy.

Saw the last hour. Boris managed to raise the roof a little with some patronising bollocks but Leave seemed to generally raise a murmur from the crowd whereas Remain seemed to get a lot more vocal support on the whole.

How the audience was picked I don't know, but Wembley certainly seemed more impassioned by the Remainers.

And yes, the Australian model has been time and again put forward as the solution to all our immigration problems. Funny how those who have implemented and lived with it are saying it won't be.

fretmeister

https://www.buzzfeed.com/scottybryan/that-john-oliver-segment-on-brexit-was-not-shown-on-british?utm_term=.jhRpyxgdJ#.uwXjpKWvN

Drew_TNBD

I hate you all.

littlegreenman

fretmeister said:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/scottybryan/that-john-oliver-segment-on-brexit-was-not-shown-on-british?utm_term=.jhRpyxgdJ#.uwXjpKWvN

Just in case the link doesn't work, here's the Youtube

Emp_Fab

I was initially voting IN, then I switched out OUT as a reaction to Cameron's idiotic project fear campaign.  Now, I'm undecided.  I've looked at the list of people supporting each camp and there is a significantly larger number of people I respect on the 'IN' list than the 'OUT' list.  In fact, the vast majority of people on the OUT list I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire.  In the absence of any truly impartial advice, I may as well go with that as an indicator and vote IN.

DamianP

I played a drinking game while watching the debate. Every time someone said "Take back control" I drank a thimbleful of weak lager. I'm now in A&E being treated for alcohol poisoning.

Drew_TNBD

I hate you all.

Fretwired

littlegreenman said:

Fretwired said:

And some more

http://uk.practicallaw.com/1-500-4988?q=&qp=&qo=&qe=

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d0a675e6-0adb-11e5-98d3-00144feabdc0.html#axzz4CEkVJHZr

http://www.mobilenewscwp.co.uk/2012/05/22/lebara-hails-landmark-vat-win-against-hmrc/

http://www.internationaltaxreview.com/Article/2932969/ECJ-backs-Rank-in-250-million-VAT-reclaim.html

The list is endless ...

If I'm reading the ones of those I can see (without forking out for subscriptions) correctly, then all that's happened is that HMRC have been caught effectively trying to charge businesses tax and/ or VAT twice for the same transaction?

"HMRC had said Lebara should pay two lots of VAT on international calling cards to international distributors – once for the sale of the card and again when the card was activated by the end user."

That's a bit sneaky.

"The ECJ has ruled that the UK levy of 1.5% stamp duty reserve tax on an issue of new shares into a clearance service contravened EU law. HMRC have accepted the ruling and suspended this tax in relation to shares issued into EU clearance services. Companies which have paid SDRT in similar circumstances can now consider making repayment claims.

On 1 October 2009, the European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruled in favour of HSBC that the imposition by the UK of a 1.5% stamp duty reserve tax (SDRT) charge where securities were issued into a clearance service breached the 1969 Capital Duties Directive (Directive)."

I don't fully understand the SDRT stuff, but a) HMRC have 'fessed up and suspended the tax, and b) 2009? How is that new?

I'm no economist or businessman, but it looks more like HMRC and the Gov't trying it on and being caught with their pants down than an EU plot to control our tax laws.

Irrelevant. Big business went through the UK system which backed the government and then decided to go to the ECJ. So now the ECJ is the ultimate court in the UK - you happy with that? I'm not. And your comment about the govt trying it on is breathtaking .. the UK government should make the rules. But hey who cares. Amazon pays no tax yet people love buying shit from them. People are so dumb and shallow ... no UK government can set tax in expectation that they will be in receipt of it as the ECJ will end up ruling on it and may find in favour of big business. You can't fund the NHS on fresh air. The UK stands to lose £50 billion in tax revenues .. no wonder the Remain camp have so many big businesses supporting it.

ICBM

Ruth Davidson to replace David Cameron at the earliest possible opportunity...

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Ruth Davidson to replace David Cameron at the earliest possible opportunity...

I agree .. I've said that in the past. She's the reason the Tories have gained ground in Scotland - an ordinary person who's never been near Eton with passion and vision - Margaret Thatcher MK 2 (runs and hides). She was the best person in the debate by a country mile. Boris was poor by his normal standards .. I got a sense he didn't really believe the Leave argument or he was tired. I thought Khan was poor .. perhaps it was the large audience but he ended up rambling. It was ladies night ... far better than the men.

Mkjackary

Emp_Fab;1120319" said:

In fact, the vast majority of people on the OUT list I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire.  In the absence of any truly impartial advice, I may as well go with that as an indicator and vote IN.

I am pretty sure hitler would have been an "IN" voter, does that mean I give a fuck? Don't let the bullshit arguments about rascism or bigotry or indeed any from the other side swing you. Vote for something based on your belief, not based on the personalities of either side.

Watch the bbc "the big debate" on Iplayer and have a look at some other debates/BBC daily politics episodes.

Farage for example I think is down to earth and says stuff how he sees it which I respect. However his tendency to push it over the line, and fucking stupid beliefs that things that have been proven to be less effective than the placebo effect should be funded by the NHS along with other pseudo science and his retarded views on the environment.

However I agree with him in some areas, I am not going to change my view because someone whom I don't particularly like believes my view too, that is a pussy arse reason. Look at the debates, look at the arguments, listen to the arguments and make a judgement.

By voting on the characters involved you are no better than the people who say "I'm voting out because of fucking *insert racist term here* coming to our country". I.e voting because of a bullshit reason. IMO

(rant not directed fully at you, just been hearing so many fucking university students on my facebook feeds main argument for remaining being "trump said we should leave, doesn't that say enough?"...)

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

Irrelevant. Big business went through the UK system which backed the government and then decided to go to the ECJ. So now the ECJ is the ultimate court in the UK - you happy with that? I'm not. And your comment about the govt trying it on is breathtaking .. the UK government should make the rules. But hey who cares. Amazon pays no tax yet people love buying shit from them. People are so dumb and shallow ... no UK government can set tax in expectation that they will be in receipt of it as the ECJ will end up ruling on it and may find in favour of big business. You can't fund the NHS on fresh air. The UK stands to lose £50 billion in tax revenues .. no wonder the Remain camp have so many big businesses supporting it.

Yes the government should make the rules. But those rules then have to be fair and the Lebara case doesn't seem fair at all. The Littlewoods case got referred back to the High Court by the ECJ. 

With Amazon, I quite agree. One hopes that, should we stay in Europe, the EU really does what it says it will do along with reforms elsewhere in tax systems.  

  

Chalky

The sad thing I've learned from the build up to this referendum is that there are two sorts of people in the UK - those who think for themselves and those whose views are changed by the slightest breeze. The latter appear to greatly outnumber the former.

chillidoggy

Im voting out because I think we'll be better off in the long run. Maybe I'm in a minority, but I can honestly say my choice has not been influenced by any of the campaigner's personalities, or views.

viz

Emp_Fab said:

I was initially voting IN, then I switched out OUT as a reaction to Cameron's idiotic project fear campaign.  Now, I'm undecided.  I've looked at the list of people supporting each camp and there is a significantly larger number of people I respect on the 'IN' list than the 'OUT' list.  In fact, the vast majority of people on the OUT list I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire.  In the absence of any truly impartial advice, I may as well go with that as an indicator and vote IN.

That's exactly my way of thinking too, except I've had to switch to OUT as a direct result of your post.