It's turning nasty now

Fretwired

lloyd said:

Whether the police are seeing a spike or not isn't hugely relevant in this IMO, personally I think there will have been a rise in casual off the cuff racism being voiced because of the referendum.

I have no evidence to back this up.

I have no idea either - you could be right. But it's been going on for years. I was involved in writing a report about racism in London colleges. The average college could have 100 such incidents a day (casual racism - no physical violence), especially after the rise of ISIS. The press never reported it ...

Maybe Brexit may lead to an open debate and action being taken.

paulmapp8306

paulmapp8306 said:

If we sign up to free movement as part of EU trade, there will be riots bigger than has ever been seen in the UK.  It wont happen - there are other modes of trade.

MrBump said:

thisisguitar said:

Whichever way you voted, you can't deny that plenty have voted based on immigration (otherwise they would have not campaigned so hard on it), and small portion of those are just not nice people to say the least. When this small proportion see 52% voted out too, they are going to feel legitimised in their behaviour.

The irony is that even if this is true we're likely to have to sign up to free movement to access EU financial markets.  Any British goverment that compromises the City of London in how it does business won't last long, and the EU will insist on freedom of movement (or at least freedom of labour) for that to happen.

If we sign up to free movement as part of EU trade, there will be riots bigger than has ever been seen in the UK.  It wont happen - there are other modes of trade.

I think there has been a MASSIVE misunderstanding amongst many.  IMMIGRATION was never a subject on the cards int he in/out choice.  CONTROLLED MOVEMENT was.  There is a huge difference between the two.  

fields5069 said:

paulmapp8306 said:

Bogwhoppit said:

fields5069 said:

Bogwhoppit said:

fields5069 said:

So few racists voted, but so many feckwits voted.

Frustrating as it is, everyone has a voice in democracy.  How do you define a level of IQ to vote when so many world leaders have no common sense ?

That's the whole point, these (MPs) are the people we have entrusted out vote to.

I entrust (with fingers crossed behind my back) my MP to the day-to-day running of the country. Not on decisions such as membership of the EU.  A line has to be drawn between management and wholesale change.

Absolutely.  How can one elected MP represent his constituency,  when that constituency is split pretty much 50/50 on a subject. 

I would say that most MPs act on what they believe to be their constituents' best interests. A lot of motions are divisive, yet your MP still votes for what they believe in or have been told to believe in by party whips.

Even John Kerry thinks we witnessed democracy. The world's gone mad. Someone on Facebook told me we would "have to agree to disagree". There's nothing to agree or disagree with. It's a political system with a specific definition.

That first statement is contradictory - how can they vote for what they believe their constituents want - but also what there told to vote for.  The Party Whip system is the one thing above all else that makes our political system un-democratic.

crunchman

The Party Whip system is the one thing above all else that makes our political system un-democratic.

This maybe the truest thing in this thread

Fretwired

crunchman said:

The Party Whip system is the one thing above all else that makes our political system un-democratic.

This maybe the truest thing in this thread

It's the party system. In ye olde days MPs were elected from which a government was formed. The government ministers couldn't vote. They did things and were held to account by MPs who could sack them if they were incompetent or vote down things likes tax rises if they didn't like them.

It went tits up when parties were formed.

CabbageCat

crunchman said:

The Party Whip system is the one thing above all else that makes our political system un-democratic.

This maybe the truest thing in this thread

If that's the really true then you should consider voting Green. They don't have a whip afaik. That's the main reason they have such a reputation for being crackpots - any of the lovely, well-meaning cretins that form the party membership seems to be able to come up with their own little view of Utopia and pretend that it's official party policy.

Myranda

paulmapp8306 said:

MrBump said:

thisisguitar said:

Whichever way you voted, you can't deny that plenty have voted based on immigration (otherwise they would have not campaigned so hard on it), and small portion of those are just not nice people to say the least. When this small proportion see 52% voted out too, they are going to feel legitimised in their behaviour.

The irony is that even if this is true we're likely to have to sign up to free movement to access EU financial markets.  Any British goverment that compromises the City of London in how it does business won't last long, and the EU will insist on freedom of movement (or at least freedom of labour) for that to happen.

If we sign up to free movement as part of EU trade, there will be riots bigger than has ever been seen in the UK.  It wont happen - there are other modes of trade.

I think there has been a MASSIVE misunderstanding amongst many.  IMMIGRATION was never a subject on the cards int he in/out choice.  CONTROLLED MOVEMENT was.  There is a huge difference between the two.  

Just because people voted one way, without understanding what was on "offer" and the implications of that - does not then give them the right to demand what they "thought" they were voting for.

There wont be huge rioting... we're too lazy as a country to riot over anything important... the last proper riots were an excuse to nick some TVs, and a lot of people who participated got caught so that will discourage the next lot. 

But other than a cynical attempt to use the slightly dodgy death of a very dodgy criminal to start a riot when did we last rise up and riot over politics? Pole tax? Well Council Tax is less fair on the poor, but we don't riot over that... couple of race riots... we will at worst grumble on the internet or possibly start an ePetition 

Sporky

CabbageCat said:

If that's the really true then you should consider voting Green. They don't have a whip afaik. That's the main reason they have such a reputation for being crackpots - any of the lovely, well-meaning cretins that form the party membership seems to be able to come up with their own little view of Utopia and pretend that it's official party policy. 

Aren't the Greens as close to anarchist as you can get and still be a party?

CabbageCat

Sporky said:

CabbageCat said:

If that's the really true then you should consider voting Green. They don't have a whip afaik. That's the main reason they have such a reputation for being crackpots - any of the lovely, well-meaning cretins that form the party membership seems to be able to come up with their own little view of Utopia and pretend that it's official party policy. 

Aren't the Greens as close to anarchist as you can get and still be a party?

I don't think it's easy to apply labels to Green politics. The Green party's left/right/authoritarian/liberal chart is like the results of a pre-school trip to the Sunny Delight Degustation and Rifle Range Fun Parlour.

Myranda

fields5069 said:

paulmapp8306 said:

Bogwhoppit said:

fields5069 said:

Bogwhoppit said:

fields5069 said:

So few racists voted, but so many feckwits voted.

Frustrating as it is, everyone has a voice in democracy.  How do you define a level of IQ to vote when so many world leaders have no common sense ?

That's the whole point, these (MPs) are the people we have entrusted out vote to.

I entrust (with fingers crossed behind my back) my MP to the day-to-day running of the country. Not on decisions such as membership of the EU.  A line has to be drawn between management and wholesale change.

Absolutely.  How can one elected MP represent his constituency,  when that constituency is split pretty much 50/50 on a subject. 

I would say that most MPs act on what they believe to be their constituents' best interests. A lot of motions are divisive, yet your MP still votes for what they believe in or have been told to believe in by party whips.

Even John Kerry thinks we witnessed democracy. The world's gone mad. Someone on Facebook told me we would "have to agree to disagree". There's nothing to agree or disagree with. It's a political system with a specific definition.

How exactly have we witnessed democracy?

We elect people to make the hard decisions.

Those people decided to take a day off and make us make the hard decision.

Our decision means absolutely nothing - an advisory poll, on a subject that requires an act of parliament.

The leader of one political party decided to bury his head in the sand and is now surprised his party is pissed at him.

The leader of another political party heard the result and f***ed off.

The leader of the third biggest party has seen the opportunity for a second Out referendum from the UK.

No one is talking about what is actually happening as most of the politicians in charge are busy fighting each other.

The leadership of the country is likely to be handed to one of the previous leaders school chums.

The leadership of the country is currently twiddling thumbs till his last day... after which someone else will be chosen (2 of the leading candidates being school chums of the last leader), and they will start a process of parliamentary debate which by all acounts is likely to be a massive Remain vote... 

That all adds up to the most un-democratic farce this country has faced in a long time.

Oh... and even if we DID riot... what would it achieve? Is there a politically astute rebel government waiting in the wings to take over from the 600 showers of shit that currently do our bidding in Westminster? Will they say "goodness all the unwashed proles that I normally don't listen to are burning cars (not mine, it's behind a 10' barbwire fence, but other prole's cars) I should re-think my whole life" ?? No, they'll say nothing, do nothing, and might consider criticising whoever is in charge at the time in a vague sense on Twitter. Short of a coup-de-tat the vote in westminster will be the end of it for another 40 years.

Fretwired

@Lloyd .. some press to support your view .. sad

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/poles-and-muslims-are-targeted-amid-sudden-rise-in-hate-crime-wtl6jm2nz

Myranda

Fretwired said:

@Lloyd .. some press to support your view .. sad

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/poles-and-muslims-are-targeted-amid-sudden-rise-in-hate-crime-wtl6jm2nz

Does the article cut off early?

Fretwired

Myranda said:

Fretwired said:

@Lloyd .. some press to support your view .. sad

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/poles-and-muslims-are-targeted-amid-sudden-rise-in-hate-crime-wtl6jm2nz

Does the article cut off early?

Ah ... it's behind a firewall .. hang on ..

Fretwired

@Lloyd @Myranda full text from the Times:

Poles and Muslims targeted amid sudden rise in hate crime

A Polish community centre was daubed with racist graffiti and far-right demonstrators chanted abuse outside a mosque amid a surge in suspected hate crimes following the referendum vote to leave the European Union.

Two men were arrested in Birmingham after a protest outside a mosque on Saturday where police confiscated a banner with the slogan “rapefugees not welcome”.

The Metropolitan police confirmed that they were investigating graffiti on the Polish cultural centre in Hammersmith as a suspected incident of racially motivated criminal damage.

Joanna Mludzinska, chairman of the centre, said its staff had been “very disturbed and upset” to find the offensive graffiti across the front of the building. However, she added: “We have been very moved and extremely grateful to our local councillors, MPs and neighbours who have come in.”

Officers were also investigating reports from Upton Park, east London, where a witness said that he went to the aid of a Polish man and his father who were beaten up on Saturday night.

The witness, who gave his name as Carlos, tweeted about the incident as he came across it: “Walking home, see these men laid out on the floor, thought they were drunk, took a photo, turns out they’ve been battered senseless by ‘English man, English man’. A son and his dad, dad’s unconscious. Blood everywhere.”

He waited at the scene until police and paramedics arrived. The older man was said to have suffered a broken arm while his son had severe facial injuries including a suspected broken jaw.

The witness told The Times that he was giving a full statement to the police.

Baroness Warsi, the Conservative peer who stopped supporting Leave because of the anti-immigrant tone of the campaign, said that the atmosphere on the streets of Britain was not good.

There were widespread reports of people suffering verbal abuse on the streets, in shops and cafés and at railway stations. In Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire, laminated cards reading “Leave the EU, no more Polish vermin” were posted through letterboxes and left near a school.

Shazia Awan, a former Conservative parliamentary candidate and Remain campaigner in Wales, was told online: “Pack your bags and go home.”

After collating further incidents of abuse — including a doctor reporting racial comments in his local Asda supermarket — Ms Awan tweeted: “Wales wanted out, I think they want us all out with non-white skin. The state of abuse in Wales is shocking.”

The National Police Chiefs Council said that forces had drawn up plans for a possible racist surge after the referendum result and advised people to report all incidents. Amid rising tension and fear, community leaders called on prominent Leave campaigners to speak out against xenophobia.

Jasvir Singh, a barrister and co-chairman of Faith Forums London, said that he had received a dozen reports of people from South Asian backgrounds experiencing racist abuse since Thursday’s poll.

In the most serious case a Sikh builder was set upon in Dagenham, east London, by men who called him “terrorist scum bin Laden” and tried to pull off his turban before passers-by intervened to protect him.

“It feels like the Leave campaign and the fact it has succeeded has legitimised that rhetoric of blaming the ‘other’,” Mr Singh said. “Now that we’re on course for leaving the EU some people have been emboldened to air views in public that they would have been much more reticent about expressing in the past. It is time that instead of politicians arguing about who is going to be the next leader they should be calling for unity. Regardless of what happened, people need to feel safe here and they do not feel safe.”

Alicja Kaczmarek, a Polish community leader in Birmingham, said that in her ten years in Britain she had never before experienced such overt hostility. “My first feeling after the referendum was that many people made their decision on the basis of immigration and now they feel they have permission to be abusive,” she said.

Lady Warsi said that she had spent most of the weekend talking to organisations that tried to tackle racism. “They have shown some really disturbing early results from people being stopped in the street and saying: ‘Look, we voted Leave, it’s time for you to leave,’” she said.

The Muslim Council of Britain said it had collated details of 100 “hate incidents” since the referendum result.

UnclePsychosis

Myranda said:

Fretwired said:

@Lloyd .. some press to support your view .. sad

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/poles-and-muslims-are-targeted-amid-sudden-rise-in-hate-crime-wtl6jm2nz

Does the article cut off early?

Paywall, innit.

Myranda

Fretwired said:

@Lloyd @Myranda full text from the Times:

Poles and Muslims targeted amid sudden rise in hate crime

A Polish community centre was daubed with racist graffiti and far-right demonstrators chanted abuse outside a mosque amid a surge in suspected hate crimes following the referendum vote to leave the European Union.

Two men were arrested in Birmingham after a protest outside a mosque on Saturday where police confiscated a banner with the slogan “rapefugees not welcome”.

The Metropolitan police confirmed that they were investigating graffiti on the Polish cultural centre in Hammersmith as a suspected incident of racially motivated criminal damage.

Joanna Mludzinska, chairman of the centre, said its staff had been “very disturbed and upset” to find the offensive graffiti across the front of the building. However, she added: “We have been very moved and extremely grateful to our local councillors, MPs and neighbours who have come in.”

Officers were also investigating reports from Upton Park, east London, where a witness said that he went to the aid of a Polish man and his father who were beaten up on Saturday night.

The witness, who gave his name as Carlos, tweeted about the incident as he came across it: “Walking home, see these men laid out on the floor, thought they were drunk, took a photo, turns out they’ve been battered senseless by ‘English man, English man’. A son and his dad, dad’s unconscious. Blood everywhere.”

He waited at the scene until police and paramedics arrived. The older man was said to have suffered a broken arm while his son had severe facial injuries including a suspected broken jaw.

The witness told The Times that he was giving a full statement to the police.

Baroness Warsi, the Conservative peer who stopped supporting Leave because of the anti-immigrant tone of the campaign, said that the atmosphere on the streets of Britain was not good.

There were widespread reports of people suffering verbal abuse on the streets, in shops and cafés and at railway stations. In Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire, laminated cards reading “Leave the EU, no more Polish vermin” were posted through letterboxes and left near a school.

Shazia Awan, a former Conservative parliamentary candidate and Remain campaigner in Wales, was told online: “Pack your bags and go home.”

After collating further incidents of abuse — including a doctor reporting racial comments in his local Asda supermarket — Ms Awan tweeted: “Wales wanted out, I think they want us all out with non-white skin. The state of abuse in Wales is shocking.”

The National Police Chiefs Council said that forces had drawn up plans for a possible racist surge after the referendum result and advised people to report all incidents. Amid rising tension and fear, community leaders called on prominent Leave campaigners to speak out against xenophobia.

Jasvir Singh, a barrister and co-chairman of Faith Forums London, said that he had received a dozen reports of people from South Asian backgrounds experiencing racist abuse since Thursday’s poll.

In the most serious case a Sikh builder was set upon in Dagenham, east London, by men who called him “terrorist scum bin Laden” and tried to pull off his turban before passers-by intervened to protect him.

“It feels like the Leave campaign and the fact it has succeeded has legitimised that rhetoric of blaming the ‘other’,” Mr Singh said. “Now that we’re on course for leaving the EU some people have been emboldened to air views in public that they would have been much more reticent about expressing in the past. It is time that instead of politicians arguing about who is going to be the next leader they should be calling for unity. Regardless of what happened, people need to feel safe here and they do not feel safe.”

Alicja Kaczmarek, a Polish community leader in Birmingham, said that in her ten years in Britain she had never before experienced such overt hostility. “My first feeling after the referendum was that many people made their decision on the basis of immigration and now they feel they have permission to be abusive,” she said.

Lady Warsi said that she had spent most of the weekend talking to organisations that tried to tackle racism. “They have shown some really disturbing early results from people being stopped in the street and saying: ‘Look, we voted Leave, it’s time for you to leave,’” she said.

The Muslim Council of Britain said it had collated details of 100 “hate incidents” since the referendum result.

What do the racists expect to happen if they get their way? The EU citizens leaving wholesale would pretty much prove a disaster of epic proportions (3 million EU citizens... who'd do their jobs?)... but to get rid of anyone not "white" ... what sort of country would we be left with?! 

I hope that those caught using the EU referendum as an excuse to be more violently racist are pillioried and publicly shamed

ICBM

Myranda said:

What do the racists expect to happen if they get their way? The EU citizens leaving wholesale would pretty much prove a disaster of epic proportions (3 million EU citizens... who'd do their jobs?)... but to get rid of anyone not "white" ... what sort of country would we be left with?! 

I hope that those caught using the EU referendum as an excuse to be more violently racist are pillioried and publicly shamed

You're making the mistake of thinking they have any idea what three million means. Or possibly three...

And sadly publicly shaming them won't work, since they are proud of it not ashamed.

Myranda

According to a tweet by Guardian reporter Vikram Dodd one online portal for the police has registered a 57% increase in reported hate crime... figures from the 999 or 111 type report-a-crime methods aren't listed and he does stress that it's just the online portal.

If the numbers are right and even close to the actual change in incidents then Britain has become a far less tolerant place over-night... I'm hoping that it's just a skewed figure. Otherwise I weep for the UK as a whole

chrispy108

Have new racists been created, or just existing ones feeling a bit cockier?

To be clear, I don't endorse it in anyway, but as a society it's much easier to deal with explicit racism than hidden racism.

Painful short term, but will lead to a more tolerant society in the long run, rather than one which quietly pretends to be one.

paddyb

I saw a good quote regarding this on twitter - the problem is that racists now think that 52% of the population agrees with them

Sambostar

This is all media bollocks, race stuff goes on all the time,  People stick together from ethincity and country of origin and it gets nasty and this is all between our European immigrants as it stands and it does get nasty between them, especially cretain immigrant groups which will remain nameless.  You're all following the agenda.  It's a load of crap and the Brit racist stuff is all but insignificant.  You're just jumping on it, if you want to find racism ask the minority of the immigrants.