Brexit legal challenge.

Chalky

Clarky said:

siremoon said:

Sky news reporting that Merkel has invited May to Berlin for talks.  If true then what happened to the EU "no informal negotiations before you invoke Article 50" position?

I understood this to be talks on May's intentions for the UK rather than informal negotiations..
I seriously hope that May and Merkel really hit it off and work well together
we need to get away from all the 'little Britain' spiteful sniping that's been coming from those in the EU Commission
it's the sort of emotionally driven crap you'd expect to hear from a dumped girlfriend 

from what I gather, the UK cannot enter into any negotiations formal or otherwise with the EU before article 50..
but there is absolutely nothing preventing May and Co holding talks with individual heads of state that just happen to be EU members.. 
and I don't think the EU Commission can prevent it
Merkel was also pretty smart in ensuring that heads of state handle the serious Brexit stuff rather than the EU Commission..
Juncker wanted to appoint one of his own to handle this and punish the UK..
Merkel seems to have taken the lead on this and basically over-ruled him

does anyone else here get the feeling [especially after his comments yesterday] that Juncker has had his wings clipped?

As I've said all along, Germany has by far the most to lose in a fight with the UK and Merkel is responding to that in a pragmatic manner.

Regarding Juncker, the interesting thing is how the French react - will they side with dogmatic Juncker or pragmatic Merkel?

Juncker is providing an excellent example of the rot at the heart of the EU - he could pursue punishing the UK, cause a trade war that would drag Germany into recession, and be accountable for his actions to.....no-one.

siremoon

Clarky said:

siremoon said:

Sky news reporting that Merkel has invited May to Berlin for talks.  If true then what happened to the EU "no informal negotiations before you invoke Article 50" position?

I understood this to be talks on May's intentions for the UK rather than informal negotiations..
I seriously hope that May and Merkel really hit it off and work well together
we need to get away from all the 'little Britain' spiteful sniping that's been coming from those in the EU Commission
it's the sort of emotionally driven crap you'd expect to hear from a dumped girlfriend 

from what I gather, the UK cannot enter into any negotiations formal or otherwise with the EU before article 50..
but there is absolutely nothing preventing May and Co holding talks with individual heads of state that just happen to be EU members.. 
and I don't think the EU Commission can prevent it
Merkel was also pretty smart in ensuring that heads of state handle the serious Brexit stuff rather than the EU Commission..
Juncker wanted to appoint one of his own to handle this and punish the UK..
Merkel seems to have taken the lead on this and basically over-ruled him

does anyone else here get the feeling [especially after his comments yesterday] that Juncker has had his wings clipped?

On Juncker.  Yes I get the feeling he must have been told to shut up because he was shouting his mouth off consistently in the immediate aftermath of the vote and has been very quiet since.

On talks.  Whilst I agree that will probably be the way it is presented I think there is a very fuzzy boundary between our intentions and our wish list in the sense that each affects the other.  I also expect there will be plenty of off the record conversations aimed at sounding out where there is wriggle room.  Many deals have their genesis in conversations between underlings over a cigarette in a windswept car park.

Clarky

Merkel and May both seem to be practical people
I'm hoping they manage to find some sort of middle ground whereby everyone concedes a little, but overall everyone wins quite a lot 

Gru

Emp_Fab said:

How about this then.... if, for some bizarre reason, we had a referendum on whether we should nuke Russia, and the result came back YES, by 52% to 48% - should the government actually launch the missiles ?  Yes, it was idiotic to hold the referendum in the first place, but a vote is a vote...

And would we be absolutely stuffed!    Not only would we have broadcast the vote on all the news channels for the world to see, rather than going ahead with it, we would spend then next six months pussy footing around, deciding 'should we' 'shouldn't we', in which time Russia would take the bull by the horns and nuke us instead. 

ToneControl

here's the elephant graph:

http://www.morningstar.co.uk/uk/news/151161/is-this-graph-to-blame-for-brexit.aspx?ut=2

Myranda

ToneControl said:

here's the elephant graph:

http://www.morningstar.co.uk/uk/news/151161/is-this-graph-to-blame-for-brexit.aspx?ut=2

Is... Is that a website named after Lucifer? 

seany65

Sporky said:

seany65 said:

This was branded by all the remainers and press as 'Racist'

No, it was branded as racist by some remainers and some of the press.

In the same way that it's only some of the leavers who are painting all remainers as intolerant, anti-democratic snobs, or as you put it, "whinging turds".

All? No. That's an outright lie and you know it. I've seen more leavers claim that remainers think leavers are racist than I've seen remainers who've actually said it.

No, it's not an 'outright lie'.  It comes from so much of what I've read in the papers and seen on the box before the vote and on what I've seen and read after the vote.

Practically the only thing the remainers said the exiters were thinking about was 'control of our borders' and they insinuated that it was racist to think about it.  If you look at youtube clips of the remainers since the vote, they all seem to think than the exiters are dragging Britain so far to the right thet we'll end up being a fascist state.  Don't tell me it was only some of the press who tried to label all brexiters as murderous right-wingers after Jo Cox was mudered,  it was most of them to some degree.

Sporky

So you concede that it wasn't "all remainers", and that you were incorrect to say it was. Good-oh.

Myranda

Sporky said:

So you concede that it wasn't "all remainers", and that you were incorrect to say it was. Good-oh.

Is that what he said? Thank you for explaining as I hadn't a clue from what he wrote  

seany65

Sporky said:

So you concede that it wasn't "all remainers", and that you were incorrect to say it was. Good-oh.

No. I don't concede that. It was all the remainers that I heard or read. Even if it wasn't 'all', it was certainly far more than the 'some', that you  said.

Clarky

seany65 said:

Sporky said:

So you concede that it wasn't "all remainers", and that you were incorrect to say it was. Good-oh.

No. I don't concede that. It was all the remainers that I heard or read. Even if it wasn't 'all', it was certainly far more than the 'some', that you  said.

I am a remainer..
I believe that all of the leavers are wrong.. simply my belief and nothing more
but I do not believe that all leavers are racist
also, I do not believe that all people wanting better control of our borders are racist either as many have said that they think the UK is heading for a crisis due to lack of infrastructure and over-population.. to which immigration is contributing to..
which in itself is not an unreasonable thought..

so… all remainers think all leavers are racist is not true..
cos it's all remainers - 1, where -1 = me
and I have a feeling it's quite a lot more than just -1
but you tend not to hear too much about us types cos we don't make good sensationalist news, or are not so fired up that we have to Facebook / Twitter / etc it all over the web..

Heartfeltdawn

seany65 said:

Don't tell me it was only some of the press who tried to label all brexiters as murderous right-wingers after Jo Cox was mudered,  it was most of them to some degree.

"Most of them"

The top three circulating newspapers for May were all Leave. It's accurate to say that by circulation alone far more Leave-backing newspapers were sold in May than Remain newspapers. 

So no, it wasn't most of them. Some of them is accurate. 

Sporky

seany65 said:

Sporky said:

So you concede that it wasn't "all remainers", and that you were incorrect to say it was. Good-oh.

No. I don't concede that. It was all the remainers that I heard or read. Even if it wasn't 'all', it was certainly far more than the 'some', that you  said.

Right - so you concede that it wasn't all remainers.

Clarky

Sporky said:

seany65 said:

Sporky said:

So you concede that it wasn't "all remainers", and that you were incorrect to say it was. Good-oh.

No. I don't concede that. It was all the remainers that I heard or read. Even if it wasn't 'all', it was certainly far more than the 'some', that you  said.

Right - so you concede that it wasn't all remainers.

or concedes not to concede

in which case maybe he wishes to remain anomalous 

marantz1300

If life becomes easier, better and wealthier, for the majority of people that will because of the leavers. 

If it becomes hell ,that will also be down to the leavers.

Only time will tell.

We'll see who's whinging in a few years.

p90fool

marantz1300 said:

If life becomes easier, better and wealthier, for the majority of people that will because of the leavers. 

If it becomes hell ,that will also be down to the leavers.

Only time will tell.

We'll see who's whinging in a few years.

It doesn't really matter how bad things get here when we leave, the tabloids will bombard us with isolated exaggerated stories about how horrendous things are on the mainland, and although we're in a deep recession we still had a lucky escape. 

Whatever happens to the economy now, both sides will conjure up evidence to say "I told you so". 

marantz1300

True,but some will feel it / live it more in their pocket.

p90fool

marantz1300 said:

True,but some will feel it / live it more in their pocket.

Yes, and as someone near the bottom rung in a poor area I'll be one of them as usual. Those who are lucky enough to be unaffected will continue to claim we're exaggerating, as they have through my last three redundancies.

Recession is an abstract and acceptable byproduct of austerity for a lot of people, but it isn't where I live, it's very real.

digitalscream

p90fool said: 

Recession is an abstract and acceptable byproduct of austerity for a lot of people, but it isn't where I live, it's very real.

Not that it makes a difference to your situation, but you kind of have that backwards - austerity (as it's been applied to the economy in recent times) is a remedial measure for coping with a recession.

As for being acceptable...a recession is acceptable to almost everyone until it affects them personally, because - as you say - it's an abstract concept. As soon as it hits them directly, it's the worst thing in the world and always somebody else's fault.

p90fool

digitalscream said:

p90fool said: 

Recession is an abstract and acceptable byproduct of austerity for a lot of people, but it isn't where I live, it's very real.

Not that it makes a difference to your situation, but you kind of have that backwards - austerity (as it's been applied to the economy in recent times) is a remedial measure for coping with a recession.

As for being acceptable...a recession is acceptable to almost everyone until it affects them personally, because - as you say - it's an abstract concept. As soon as it hits them directly, it's the worst thing in the world and always somebody else's fault.

In technical terms I agree, but it's only a remedial measure for three quarters of the population, to the extreme detriment of the rest.

That's good enough in a 2-party system to get re-elected though, we're a prosperous enough nation for Dennis Moore economics to be acceptable to most people, most of the time.