Pricing of vintage guitars

usedtobe

That fact that doing work,to keep an instrument in useable condition, trashes its value , sums up the whole vintage guitar nonsense, perfectly for me. But I'll get called ignorant for that..

Bridgehouse

No, a refret will not trash a vintage guitars value. If it's done well - and I mean well, then at most you might lose a few percent - 5% max. In real terms that's nothing as prices are negotiated anyway. There's a lot of hyperbole spouted about vintage guitars - and if you're genuinely interested then George Gruhn is a good starting point to start reading..

In some cases a refret will increase the value. The things that affect value are changed parts, refinishes and non original additions/subtractions.

Mooster

It depends if it's considered collector grade or player grade. For the latter it would not matter as much but the fact that it's not considered "all original" any more would play a large part in it's current value. If you bought the instrument non-"all-original" in the first place then this is less of a factor. New frets would be a lesser deal but usually new frets need a new nut and a new nut for some reason is a bigger deal (would look too pale and new). A sympathetic update of original parts would make the value drop less but a modification (larger frets, modern wiring from a 3-way to a 5-way) would lower the value further. Especially wiring - the moment you re-solder, it's considered in some circles as fishy.

IvisonGuitars

Bridgehouse said:

No, a refret will not trash a vintage guitars value. If it's done well - and I mean well, then at most you might lose a few percent - 5% max. In real terms that's nothing as prices are negotiated anyway. There's a lot of hyperbole spouted about vintage guitars - and if you're genuinely interested then George Gruhn is a good starting point to start reading..

In some cases a refret will increase the value. The things that affect value are changed parts, refinishes and non original additions/subtractions.

Absolutely agree. Unless you are in the market as a collector only looking for absolute, pristine 100% original guitars then a refret absolutely does NOT destroy the value of a vintage guitar. 

It's been mentioned before but, would you buy a classic car and want to drive it on its original tyres or run it on its original engine oil??

I have a '55 Junior that was all original when I bought it. Stunning sounding guitar but played like an absolute dog on its original thin frets. I didn't play it cause it was so bad. Then after about 8 months of it staying in its case, I bit the bullet and got it refretted. The different was night and day. It's now my number one guitar, the value as a playing, working guitar has only been increased in my opinion.

Same thing with a '65 Special I bought off here earlier in the year. Incredible tone, original worn frets - dog to play. Refretted it's an absolute killer guitar now and the new owner is very happy.

musicman100

The problem with all this talk regarding been original/non original/ players grade or collector's condition is that the prices are all over the place and you don't know what is a genuine price in the first place. 
If you look at guitars that sit for sale with a silly price tag for ages it's not hard to work out that thier over priced n won't sell regardless of if a so called expert says it's worth ex amount.
What makes me laugh is all this talk about vintage guitars been investments. 

Bridgehouse

@Mooster I disagree.

Players vs. Collectors grades is about condition and originality of components/modifications. 

It's important to distinguish between necessary repairs and modifications. Necessary repairs include a refret. Vintage Guitar Magazine's Price Guide clearly state in their into and 'understanding the prices' section that there is a clear distinction between condition, modifications and repairs, and in particular necessary repairs. 

They canvas nearly every vintage dealer in the US for the prices, and their conclusion is that a very well executed minor repair or refret (including swapped nut) will have no more than 5% effect on price - even if Mint and Collectors grade.

More importantly, poor repairs, poor refret or poor neck repairs have a much greater effect. Modifications have a much greater effect. A refinish has a 50% price reduction effect regardless of how good it is. 

This isn't my opinion - it's the opinion of dealers in the US who deal day in and day out. Refrets are a necessary part of keeping a guitar playable. Modifications aren't. Refinishes aren't. Minor crack repairs are. That's based on their reality of the prices paid by their punters when buying instruments from them.

Bridgehouse

musicman100 said:

The problem with all this talk regarding been original/non original/ players grade or collector's condition is that the prices are all over the place and you don't know what is a genuine price in the first place. 
If you look at guitars that sit for sale with a silly price tag for ages it's not hard to work out that thier over priced n won't sell regardless of if a so called expert says it's worth ex amount.
What makes me laugh is all this talk about vintage guitars been investments. 

I agree that 'investment' can be a misleading term. I would never buy a guitar as an investment nowadays.

But if I dropped 2k on a new guitar today, I wouldn't expect to sell it for anything near that next year. If I spent 2k on a good vintage (and didn't overpay) I would be really surprised if I didn't get my money back if I sold it in a years time 

musicman100

Bridgehouse said:

musicman100 said:

The problem with all this talk regarding been original/non original/ players grade or collector's condition is that the prices are all over the place and you don't know what is a genuine price in the first place. 
If you look at guitars that sit for sale with a silly price tag for ages it's not hard to work out that thier over priced n won't sell regardless of if a so called expert says it's worth ex amount.
What makes me laugh is all this talk about vintage guitars been investments. 

I agree that 'investment' can be a misleading term. I would never buy a guitar as an investment nowadays.

But if I dropped 2k on a new guitar today, I wouldn't expect to sell it for anything near that next year. If I spent 2k on a good vintage (and didn't overpay) I would be really surprised if I didn't get my money back if I sold it in a years time 

Yeah I would agree mate. 
When I buy i always have a price limit in my head of what I realically think it's worth n i never go over that price.

Bridgehouse

@musicman100 - nail on the head mate. It's all about what it's worth to you. If you apply the principal to modern or vintage guitars then you will never overpay, as you are only paying what you would be happy to pay. 

musicman100

Bridgehouse said:

@musicman100 - nail on the head mate. It's all about what it's worth to you. If you apply the principal to modern or vintage guitars then you will never overpay, as you are only paying what you would be happy to pay. 

That's my principle and that's how I've but it up my collection.
I always pay fair prices but I never over pay and if I don't like the price I simply just walk away.

IvisonGuitars

In my mind 'Vintage Guitar' is too much of an umbrella phrase. 

For example, when i'm looking to purchase a vintage guitar I use this scale, it's not binding but it clarifies it for me:

Collector Grade :  Absolute A1, Untouched, Mint, 100% Original (down to the last screw) with OHSC. The guitar is EXACTLY as it came out of the factory in it's respective year. Prices are absolute top end too as they are appealing to a collector (who will, by default, have the funds to pay what is asked) not the great unwashed like me.

Personally,  I am not only put off Collector Grade by the price but also as to why the guitar is in pristine condition - it's not been played much, is it a dog/tone turd?

High End Vintage : Excellent or Very Good Condition with some signs of play wear &/or Lacquer checking, All Original, Solder joints untouched, Original pots, Pickups, Electrics. Perhaps a good Refret and or changed nut at the most.

Player Grade Vintage : Any one or more of the following: Refinish to body/neck or both, Filled routes, Changed pots, one or more Changed Pickups (although this is a no no for me), Headstock/Heel crack repair, Refret, Changed Tuners, Changed hardware, Some or all non original plastics. Basically it's anything that has been done to the guitar to make it play and sound the best that it can, including running repairs or changes for the better.

This is where I need to factor in whats been done to the guitar for better or worse against how much they are asking so it's a pretty fluid scale which takes some knowledge of the guitar model in question and personal judgement. For example, I've just bought a 'Player Grade' 1965 Telecaster which is all original bar a filled humbucker route and pro body only refin back to the original colour. An all original, custom colour Telecaster would be touching 5 figures in today's market. WAY out of my means, however, I did pay top end Player Grade money for it from a dealer (who I wouldn't use again) but it did play beautifully and sound incredible which was the major factor in my decision to buy it.

'Beater' : Examples: Anything that has been made up of parts i.e. a Vintage fender neck on a New Body or visa versa or a Gibson junior husk with all new parts, a stripped Tele body with an added forearm contour - you get the picture. The only thing vintage about them might be the wood. These are strictly offer what it is worth to you. 

impmann

miserneil said:

In my mind 'Vintage Guitar' is too much of an umbrella phrase. 

For example, when i'm looking to purchase a vintage guitar I use this scale, it's not binding but it clarifies it for me:

Collector Grade :  Absolute A1, Untouched, Mint, 100% Original (down to the last screw) with OHSC. The guitar is EXACTLY as it came out of the factory in it's respective year. Prices are absolute top end too as they are appealing to a collector (who will, by default, have the funds to pay what is asked) not the great unwashed like me.

Personally,  I am not only put off Collector Grade by the price but also as to why the guitar is in pristine condition - it's not been played much, is it a dog/tone turd?

High End Vintage : Excellent or Very Good Condition with some signs of play wear &/or Lacquer checking, All Original, Solder joints untouched, Original pots, Pickups, Electrics. Perhaps a good Refret and or changed nut at the most.

Player Grade Vintage : Any one or more of the following: Refinish to body/neck or both, Filled routes, Changed pots, one or more Changed Pickups (although this is a no no for me), Headstock/Heel crack repair, Refret, Changed Tuners, Changed hardware, Some or all non original plastics. Basically it's anything that has been done to the guitar to make it play and sound the best that it can, including running repairs or changes for the better.

This is where I need to factor in whats been done to the guitar for better or worse against how much they are asking so it's a pretty fluid scale which takes some knowledge of the guitar model in question and personal judgement. For example, I've just bought a 'Player Grade' 1965 Telecaster which is all original bar a filled humbucker route and pro body only refin back to the original colour. An all original, custom colour Telecaster would be touching 5 figures in today's market. WAY out of my means, however, I did pay top end Player Grade money for it from a dealer (who I wouldn't use again) but it did play beautifully and sound incredible which was the major factor in my decision to buy it.

'Beater' : Examples: Anything that has been made up of parts i.e. a Vintage fender neck on a New Body or visa versa or a Gibson junior husk with all new parts, a stripped Tele body with an added forearm contour - you get the picture. The only thing vintage about them might be the wood. These are strictly offer what it is worth to you. 

Spot on that.

"Tone turd" - love that saying.

musicman100

miserneil said:

In my mind 'Vintage Guitar' is too much of an umbrella phrase. 

For example, when i'm looking to purchase a vintage guitar I use this scale, it's not binding but it clarifies it for me:

Collector Grade :  Absolute A1, Untouched, Mint, 100% Original (down to the last screw) with OHSC. The guitar is EXACTLY as it came out of the factory in it's respective year. Prices are absolute top end too as they are appealing to a collector (who will, by default, have the funds to pay what is asked) not the great unwashed like me.

Personally,  I am not only put off Collector Grade by the price but also as to why the guitar is in pristine condition - it's not been played much, is it a dog/tone turd?

High End Vintage : Excellent or Very Good Condition with some signs of play wear &/or Lacquer checking, All Original, Solder joints untouched, Original pots, Pickups, Electrics. Perhaps a good Refret and or changed nut at the most.

Player Grade Vintage : Any one or more of the following: Refinish to body/neck or both, Filled routes, Changed pots, one or more Changed Pickups (although this is a no no for me), Headstock/Heel crack repair, Refret, Changed Tuners, Changed hardware, Some or all non original plastics. Basically it's anything that has been done to the guitar to make it play and sound the best that it can, including running repairs or changes for the better.

This is where I need to factor in whats been done to the guitar for better or worse against how much they are asking so it's a pretty fluid scale which takes some knowledge of the guitar model in question and personal judgement. For example, I've just bought a 'Player Grade' 1965 Telecaster which is all original bar a filled humbucker route and pro body only refin back to the original colour. An all original, custom colour Telecaster would be touching 5 figures in today's market. WAY out of my means, however, I did pay top end Player Grade money for it from a dealer (who I wouldn't use again) but it did play beautifully and sound incredible which was the major factor in my decision to buy it.

'Beater' : Examples: Anything that has been made up of parts i.e. a Vintage fender neck on a New Body or visa versa or a Gibson junior husk with all new parts, a stripped Tele body with an added forearm contour - you get the picture. The only thing vintage about them might be the wood. These are strictly offer what it is worth to you. 

there's a lot of reasons why a guitar is in top untouched condition, not just because it's a dog 

IvisonGuitars

musicman100 said:

there's a lot of reasons why a guitar is in top untouched condition, not just because it's a dog 

I agree but please do elaborate, sir.

musicman100

miserneil said:

musicman100 said:

there's a lot of reasons why a guitar is in top untouched condition, not just because it's a dog 

I agree but please do elaborate, sir.

what's to elaborate on?

IvisonGuitars

musicman100 said:

miserneil said:

musicman100 said:

there's a lot of reasons why a guitar is in top untouched condition, not just because it's a dog 

I agree but please do elaborate, sir.

what's to elaborate on?

Just interested in what other reasons a guitar would be in top notch condition, I'm always interested to hear other people's opinions on it.

Strat54

My friend has a raving mint 50's Tele.....the original owner bought it but sadly passed away two months later at a young age. The guitar stayed in the closet till his widow passed away and it was discovered when clearing the house. It is breathtakingly clean, even the tweed case. I have played it, and its far from a dog/turd. These guitars do exist and have genuine reasons for being mint. 

musicman100

Tbh I disagree on a guitar been a dog or have bad tone to be in excellent condition.
because both playability and sound of any guitar old or new is tollally subjective.
so just because one person thinks it's a dog another guy might love it. same with tone/sound. any guitar is only as good as the player.
there's many reason for mint guitars.
been bought to learn on n then put under the bed after giving up.
people sadly passing away.
a lot of guitars back in the day weren't expensive.
imo a lot of this talk about different grades is from dealers trying to screw as much money as they can out of a guitar. 

IvisonGuitars

musicman100 said:

Tbh I disagree on a guitar been a dog or have bad tone to be in excellent condition.
because both playability and sound of any guitar old or new is tollally subjective.
so just because one person thinks it's a dog another guy might love it. same with tone/sound. any guitar is only as good as the player.
there's many reason for mint guitars.
been bought to learn on n then put under the bed after giving up.
people sadly passing away.
a lot of guitars back in the day weren't expensive.
imo a lot of this talk about different grades is from dealers trying to screw as much money as they can out of a guitar. 

I agree that there are some minters that are great out there, perhaps my initial reply was too broad for you. For experience though I have found that there's a reason that some guitars have loads of play wear and refrets - it's because they sound so good.

And my reason for the 'grades' post was not that I'm a dealer (which I'm not) it was more to try and put into context the broad context of the banner 'Vintage Guitars' - where all vintage guitars are not equal.

musicman100

miserneil said:

musicman100 said:

Tbh I disagree on a guitar been a dog or have bad tone to be in excellent condition.
because both playability and sound of any guitar old or new is tollally subjective.
so just because one person thinks it's a dog another guy might love it. same with tone/sound. any guitar is only as good as the player.
there's many reason for mint guitars.
been bought to learn on n then put under the bed after giving up.
people sadly passing away.
a lot of guitars back in the day weren't expensive.
imo a lot of this talk about different grades is from dealers trying to screw as much money as they can out of a guitar. 

I agree that there are some minters that are great out there, perhaps my initial reply was too broad for you. For experience though I have found that there's a reason that some guitars have loads of play wear and refrets - it's because they sound so good.

And my reason for the 'grades' post was not that I'm a dealer (which I'm not) it was more to try and put into context the broad context of the banner 'Vintage Guitars' - where all vintage guitars are not equal.

as I've already said it's all subjective but what do I know I'm only an amateur. lol