MIJ/CIJ vs. USA Fender

guitars4you

Jack_ said:

That guy is Gas Station, and as far as I can see, he is making sales, but he does get lots of exclusive colours and models, so that helps.

Yes I can see he is making a strong case for the special colours and obviously looking at that as a USP

Jack_

I wonder if he is paying appropriate taxes.

guitars4you

Jack_ said:

That guy is Gas Station, and as far as I can see, he is making sales, but he does get lots of exclusive colours and models, so that helps.

Just had a more detailed look at Gas Station and I can see where he is coming from - If a 'dealer' creates a niche by acquiring a larger selection, with rare models and colours, coupled with additional product knowledge, then it is inevitable that this will reflect in the pricing - The customer, as always, now has a choice to buy or look elsewhere

The issue then is that such specialists 'dealers' then become the bench mark for other sellers (be they private or business), who generally only have 1 for sale - As such they cash in on the expertise of others

grungebob

Jack_ said:

People are too quick to generalise.

Oh the irony 

jeztone2

I have a Kotzen sig Strat & a Tele. I think either are equal in quality to a US Strat. The nut cut on my Strat is amazing. It holds its tuning superbly. 

Also people are generalising about the Japanese stuff Fender choose to import. 
Theres a plethora of guitars with higher spec built for the Japanese domestic market only. 

Then there is also currency prices which given the problems the Yen has had, have pushed up the prices as well. 

robinbowes

jeztone2 said:

Then there is also currency prices which given the problems the Yen has had, have pushed up the prices as well. 

This.

The pound has tanked recently, making imports more expensive.

R.

5redlights

It's happening across the range on all models. I picked up a 1995 57 fender MIJ strat on gumtree at the beginning of the year for £290 - alder body with american vintage pups, amazing neck. Tried again recently, and same guitar was popping up at £500-£600. Granted maybe I just got lucky earlier in the year, but even the silver series and other 90s squiers are going for silly prices, and the body wood and parts quality on them is a real lottery. I personally blame the nonsense prices the JV squiers go for, they've legitimised prices hikes on anything MIJ. 

crunchman

I've not played massive numbers of them, but based on experience I do have, on the whole I prefer the Mexican stuff to the Japanese. I'm saying that as someone who has sold two Japanese Fenders, and now owns 2 Mexican ones (alongside a US AVRI as well).

Octafish

Jack_ said:

HarrySeven said:

Jack_ said:

People are too quick to generalise.

Personally, I disagree with the comments about Jap Fender's about not having 'it' or 'dem feels' or whatever.

Well, all I can speak from on this matter is direct comparison - I've got around 6 MIJ/CIJ offsets from '90's - '00's and none feel a similar quality to my AVRI's.

But they're two different leagues no? I would expect an AVRI to be better than a MIJ/CIJ, I'd say the Jap stuff is more comparable to the American Standard stuff, AVRI is supposed to be another class up.

Exactly would be pretty poor if the AVRI was no better than a guitar half it's price.

I bought a MIJ 58 Strat new 3 or so years ago mainly off the back of trying it out just to see what it was like. Had a Mexican Classic 50s Strat which was ok, but the neck on the MIJ guitar suited me much more and was better finished (rounded fretboard edges as compared to the near sharp edges on the Mexican) and the MIJ didn't have the thick 'vintage tint' yellow goop finish.

The MIJ also has nicer shaped curvy body, my Mexican was a bit blocky, and the Kluson style tuners were installed perfectly straight on the MIJ (plus they are higher quality Gotoh ones) whilst the Mexican ones wheren't perfectly straight. Overall it feels tighter and better made than the Mexican guitar. The only downside was the ceramic pickups which I changed, but I wasn't that taken with the cheap Mexican alnicos and had changed those as well. Needless to say I flogged the Mexican and I also bought a new MIJ 68 Strat last year. Having said that the prices I paid for a new MIJ were the same or even less than some of the 2nd hand prices so definitely some hype and overpricing going on.

The problem is there are various grades and specs of MIJ guitars and they all get lumped together and tagged with the reputation of the JVs as some US Fender beating, plays like buttahh, monster guitar. There are also some cheapo 90s MIJ Squiers that keep being passed off as Silver Series when they're not.

zenzeypher

It's not just Fender models all japanese guitars seemed to of price hiked.

Funnily enough I was thinking the exact same thing when I stumbled upon this thread.

To branch off a little I've noticed a MIJ guitars such as Greco, Edwards, Tokai have shot up in expected value.

A few years ago *member* you could grab Greco eg500-eg900s for decent money all day long. I bought several around the £500 mark. Japanese Epiphone depending on model for 500-600 and so on. Now alot of these are getting to be about the 700-1000 for even some of the entry models.

Despite asking im aware many aren't buying  LS65 Tokai's for £800.

Most of it seems to be the trend and misinformation.

CIJ Fenders used to sit around the 450 mark. As mentioned above most if not all skimp on the electronics and hardware so why they're getting to used USA money I've no idea.

Someone was selling their pickup harness from a MIJ tele for £120... theyre no better than the cheapest Squiers... proper chancery. 

lustycourtier

ICBM said:

HarrySeven said:

... I own MIJ/CIJ and AVRI Jags - they don't really compare, quality-wise.

Your thoughts?

I totally agree. I've never understood the hype about MIJ/CIJ Fenders. They're nice enough for the money but there's something missing despite the high quality of the woodwork, and even discounting the poor electrics and average hardware. Even with all that replaced there's still something missing from the feel and sound - not so much amplified, but you can feel it when you play them, they somehow lack the tightness and solidity I look for.

That isn't "American is best" snobbery - I think the new Mexican Classics have it. I also own a MIJ Strat… although it's not a Fender. And nor does it sound like (a real) one.Id take a MIM

Id take a MIM guitar over an MIJ fender, any day of the week, and Ive had many of both.

Octafish

zenzeypher said:

CIJ Fenders used to sit around the 450 mark. As mentioned above most if not all skimp on the electronics and hardware so why they're getting to used USA money I've no idea.

Maybe because people who don't know much about them other than the myth that they're supposed to be better than US models buy them and because they are hard to get hold of in this country?

It's a bit of generalisation to say most skimp on hardware. My 68 has Fender F tuners (same as Classic 70s), steel bridge block (better than Classic 70s) and the bridge plate and saddles look identical/comparable to US AVRI ones I bought (Classic 70s ones don't). It also came with CS Texas Special pickups, so 'better' than the cheap alnicos in the Mexican Classic series. In fact a lot of the MIJ range carry Alnico or CS spec pickups, it's just that they are less likely to turn up in this country than the cheap MIJ standards which were th forerunner to the Mexican Standard.

Fender Japan did also make (may still do) the VSP line which supposed to be AVRI level with US hardware, CS pickups, nitro finished body and neck finish.

zenzeypher

A bit of a generalisation but mainly the rule.

I've owned several from the double bound bodies, antigua, 52 look a like and currently eyeing up a Paisley. Near all needed their electrics changing.. all the pickups were standard ceramic slug with a boxed switch. This is largely my experience.

I love MIJ guitars if only for the wood and just how fucking neat they get it all.. my Antigua had great hardware but this is the exception to my rule.

Every other MIJ I've seen has needed it's hardware sorting.. mostly tuners and the pups upgraded.

All mine sounded like nails on a chalk board. £100 in upgrades and im happy.

Also I noticed even their entry level guitars use proper wood plugs etc for truss rods instead of plastic on the standard MIM. However vs a USA id be hard pushed to spend that much money on a MIJ...

Octafish

You really find the tuners not that good? My MIJ 58 Strat has Gotoh Kluson whish are definitely better than (and often recommended as upgrade to) those on the Mexican Classic. Agree with you on the wood, the neck on my 58 is quantifiably better than that on my old Mexican Classic plus the body shaping and grain is nicer.

Like you I'm happy to upgrade the electrics, I'd do the same to the pickups on a Mexican. I like vintage specs and don't have the money for an AVRI/CS and Fender make no affordable 58 or 68 Strat.

crunchman

Octafish said:

The problem is there are various grades and specs of MIJ guitars and they all get lumped together and tagged with the reputation of the JVs as some US Fender beating, plays like buttahh, monster guitar. There are also some cheapo 90s MIJ Squiers that keep being passed off as Silver Series when they're not.

That's true for Mexico and US as well.

As pointed out above, the AVRIs are normally a significant step up from the US Standard.  In the Mexican range, the Classic Series guitars are a significant step up from the Standard Series.

A Mexican Standard won't be as good as a Japanese one, but in my experience, the Mexican Classic Series I now have are at least as good as the two CIJ guitars I sold.  I actually prefer the Mexican guitars.

Having said that, you can find a good one with good wood in any of the ranges.  For me it's not about where it comes from, but whether it is made out of resonant wood.  More effort goes into wood selection on the higher ranges, but if a really resonant bit turns up on a pallet in Mexico, they will use it.  They aren't going to send it over the border to the US factory.

You have a higher chance of getting a good guitar from the US Custom Shop, but you can find a really good one at any price point.  My brother-in-law has an Affinity Series Squier that sounds really good.  If the tuning was a bit more solid I'd quite happily use it.

HarrySeven

Jack_ said:
 

But they're two different leagues no? I would expect an AVRI to be better than a MIJ/CIJ, I'd say the Jap stuff is more comparable to the American Standard stuff, AVRI is supposed to be another class up.

Indeed...but when focussing on price-point/resale value, it just seems odd that people are now asking close to (or) AVRI prices for MIJ/CIJ guitars.

I also get the USP re. Gas Station - there does seem to be a higher proportion of "interesting" finishes, etc in his stock, rather than run-of-the-mill stuff.

HarrySeven

ThorpyFX said:

I'm not sure if this thread was triggered by my advert for a CIJ Jazzmaster.......or if its coincidence this thread appears the morning after I post one for sale.

Just coincidence - spotted your ad afterwards! I'd just been browsing eBay/Gumtree and felt moved to post something...

zenzeypher

Octafish said:

You really find the tuners not that good? My MIJ 58 Strat has Gotoh Kluson whish are definitely better than (and often recommended as upgrade to) those on the Mexican Classic. Agree with you on the wood, the neck on my 58 is quantifiably better than that on my old Mexican Classic plus the body shaping and grain is nicer.

Like you I'm happy to upgrade the electrics, I'd do the same to the pickups on a Mexican. I like vintage specs and don't have the money for an AVRI/CS and Fender make no affordable 58 or 68 Strat.

I've had a couple when after a nut change it just kept slipping. I've used gotoh before with no issues. My current Greco is all gotoh as is my MJT so maybe luck (or otherwise) would have it I just owned two guitars with slipping gears. My antigua however apart from the electrics was superb. All the hardware was faultless.

I find the wood on most MIJ fenders to far surpass those of its MIM brothers n sisters.

I will agree the Mexican classic range are superb guitars. 

Octafish

crunchman said:

A Mexican Standard won't be as good as a Japanese one, but in my experience, the Mexican Classic Series I now have are at least as good as the two CIJ guitars I sold.  I actually prefer the Mexican guitars.

Having said that, you can find a good one with good wood in any of the ranges.  For me it's not about where it comes from, but whether it is made out of resonant wood.  More effort goes into wood selection on the higher ranges, but if a really resonant bit turns up on a pallet in Mexico, they will use it.  They aren't going to send it over the border to the US factory.

You have a higher chance of getting a good guitar from the US Custom Shop, but you can find a really good one at any price point.  My brother-in-law has an Affinity Series Squier that sounds really good.  If the tuning was a bit more solid I'd quite happily use it.

You also get claims that CIJ were never quite as good as MIJ (different factories), but I never played a CIJ so can't comment. I did try out the MIJ before I bought it against my own Mexican Classic and a new one in the shop and preferred the MIJ, nicer neck and the Mexicans sounded a bit dead, but that was sometime ago and I belive the model has been upgraded?

As you imply best thing is to play a load of guitars and go with what you feel at one with. My mates got a Squier CV Strat that ranks as one of the best Strats I've ever played. A while ago in Peach Guitars I played a £3000 CS Strat that was so underwhelming, felt cheap and nasty (granted not very well set up), and felt inferior to a £1300 US Standard I also tried.

ThorpyFX

HarrySeven said:

ThorpyFX said:

I'm not sure if this thread was triggered by my advert for a CIJ Jazzmaster.......or if its coincidence this thread appears the morning after I post one for sale.

Just coincidence - spotted your ad afterwards! I'd just been browsing eBay/Gumtree and felt moved to post something...

I've shown my paranoia.....