What happens when you die ??

horse

aord43 said:

Wolfetone said:

I believe that our existence is so unbelievably fantastic, that there must surely be more to our being than the physical aspect.

The human (and animal) form is a mystifying and wonderful creation that still confounds understanding and science. As it's unravelled, the more astonishing it becomes. Our bodies are fantastic machines and it's 'operating system' could be described as our essence or 'soul'. It's well within the realms of my thinking that the physical and being are two separate things and therefore capable of different endings.

Putting my cards firmly on the table, I cannot believe that we weren't created and that there are unbelievable things to be eventually revealed. I am certain that the spirit travels on.

  

This is just "the argument from personal incredulity".  There are many things in the modern world that people from 1000 years ago would find impossible.
Just because you can't understand something is not an argument for magic.

But if you accept that there is still more to discover, then why can't that include things which at the moment you'd consider as 'magic'? My limited understanding is that at quantum level things which would seem magical based on our day to day lives' experience of and understanding of the world do very much happen - our physical world is actually very different to what we commonly think of it as.

I'm agnostic for what it's worth, and for some who reject mainstream religions I never quite understand why they so quickly also dismiss the possibility of there being a different bigger truth which is not yet known - there could be a spiritual reality quite different to our ideas of religion. Accepting the big bang (which I do) still leaves the questions of why / how / what was before / what else might there be - accepting that as the very beginning of everything in every dimension ever to exist seems just as far fetched to my mind as creationist theories. How could nothing at all produce this? If there was something before then where did that come from / come to exist? To me it points to something greater beyond our experience of time, but I don't know what.

Bit of a ramble I confess, but I've been mulling over some of this lately...

xibxang

aord43 said:

True, and the argument is a persuasive one. But a creator of a simulation is different from most religions' idea of God, and also simply moves the question one step further away.

It does? Surely if we can prove that we're a simulation (which I believe we can't; there's a name for something that can't be proven which escapes me right now) then we can shut down any notion of gods or deities?

Sporky

Wolfetone said:

It prompted me to remember what someone told me once and that was that people of faith have one thing other's don't and that is 'Hope'. 

I believe that 'Hope' is a driver for many and the reason why many don't give up when faced with adversity. I would prefer to live my life in a state of hope than in the certainty of eternal blackness. I think that the eternity of blackness makes it difficult to validate life and it's wonders, all that purpose and then nothing. I don't 'feel' that it's right to think that way.

What about all the heathens who don't give up in the face of adversity? What about just marvelling at the universe without demeaning it with a pointless creator? It's surely more amazing that things are how they are because they turned out that way (with a nice smattering of "if they didn't then they wouldn't have").

One could argue that seeing death as the final end is inspiring - this is what you get, no second chance, so you'd better make the most of it, not see it as a holding pattern for Life 2.0.

Sporky

fields5069 said:

This is probably the brain easing the transition as well, but then the question would arise of why the brain would do such a thing. There's no need to make you feel better about death, in the very moment you are dying. Interesting!

I'm of the view that near death experiences are an emergent consequence of how the brain works. It's jolly unlikely, I think, that there's an evolutionary advantage to it, because most people who have a near-death-experience go on very quickly to having a death-experience and don't get to tell us about it.

I look at it as being more like what happens when you pull the power unexpectedly on a computer. Files get corrupted, the monitor goes funny... the difference is that you can almost always turn the computer back on to see the results.

Snap

richardhomer said:

Even if intended humorously - a questionable thread....

I've never considered myself religious - but I believe in the concept of people having a soul - the 'core' of what they are as people. I'm not necessarily suggesting this exists outside of the mind - but in computer terms - it's akin to their 'operating system' to me. 

I recently attended the funeral of friend who was just a few weeks younger than me. I found it profoundly depressing - partly because I was saying goodbye to someone relatively young - that seemed so unfair - and I think partly because it was a Humanist service and in that sense it really 'was' the end. No commending him to God, no hope of an afterlife; the end.

I suspect those who believe in an afterlife probably greet death slightly more positively than those who don't. Even if their faith is ultimately misplaced, I can see tremendous merit in it....

Thing is, in my opinion, the faith side of it is deceptive BS. I had my moment at a funeral years ago: listening ot all these platitudes and soothing from the priest: yeah mate I thought, but what you are saying is so ridiculous, who are you kidding?

I've lost people close to me, we all have, or will at some point. Its horrible, painful, traumatic. But I found the way to get through is to try and focus on the privilege you had by knowing them and having them in your life, not the hole they've left in you. If it doesn't hurt, then it wasn't worth it in the first place. The hurt and pain is almost the badge of honour you have for being in their life, and they in yours.

12 years ago, after an illness that debilitated her over 4 years, my mum died. She was young. I really loved her. It still hurts today, and I am welling up a little typing this, but it's good. It's good and life affirming that it still hurts. She merits it, cos she was ace. Its like a reminder of how much I enjoiyed her being part of my life.

So, I think death is totally final, the off switch and I'll not see anyone who's swtiched off before me again. But, its the big off swtich that makes everyday something special no? Maybe thinking about that big red switch coming down shakes us out of our lassitude and to seize the day instead. I find the finality of it quite uplifting really. Its one of things I find quite sad about religions like Christianity: they are so focused on the afterlife that they fail to truly grasp how wonderful being alive is. They miss the full appreciation of the incredible thing that is nature. Its not there by divine design, it has just become. That's stunning.

Sun's out!

fields5069

It's gone back in again.

aord43

horse said:

But if you accept that there is still more to discover, then why can't that include things which at the moment you'd consider as 'magic'? My limited understanding is that at quantum level things which would seem magical based on our day to day lives' experience of and understanding of the world do very much happen - our physical world is actually very different to what we commonly think of it as.

I agree with this, it's close to the famous Arthur C. Clarke quote about any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic. However religion/faith/traditional God is explicitly invoking magic/supernatural as an explanation.

aord43

xibxang said:

aord43 said:

True, and the argument is a persuasive one. But a creator of a simulation is different from most religions' idea of God, and also simply moves the question one step further away.

It does? Surely if we can prove that we're a simulation (which I believe we can't; there's a name for something that can't be proven which escapes me right now) then we can shut down any notion of gods or deities?

What I meant was that if we're a simulation the question simply becomes "in the world of the simulator-creator, is there a God (who made that creator).

fields5069

horse said:

But if you accept that there is still more to discover, then why can't that include things which at the moment you'd consider as 'magic'? My limited understanding is that at quantum level things which would seem magical based on our day to day lives' experience of and understanding of the world do very much happen - our physical world is actually very different to what we commonly think of it as.

My comment on this would be - what is that magic? Nearly all religious "miracles" are bullshit and can be dis-proven, or at least replicated. I can't think of anything in day to day life which needs a supernatural explanation.

Snap

@aord43

are you assuming time is linear though?

time is a dimension, in the same way that length width and depth are, and its something that allows us to quantify things. However, there is every chance that there is existence without time, its just difficult for our brains to comprehend it.

a "god" could exist outside of time, therefore it has no beginning, it just "is". Christians, some of them believe this. It answers the tricky, what before god question. It also could allow for the belief that once you are dead, you exist outside of time, and everyone who ever was alive, or would be alive is there as well.

not that I believe that

horse

fields5069 said:

horse said:

But if you accept that there is still more to discover, then why can't that include things which at the moment you'd consider as 'magic'? My limited understanding is that at quantum level things which would seem magical based on our day to day lives' experience of and understanding of the world do very much happen - our physical world is actually very different to what we commonly think of it as.

My comment on this would be - what is that magic? Nearly all religious "miracles" are bullshit and can be dis-proven, or at least replicated. I can't think of anything in day to day life which needs a supernatural explanation.

Well for me the actual existence of the universe and our individual consciousness could do with some additional explanation

xibxang

fields5069 said:

horse said:

But if you accept that there is still more to discover, then why can't that include things which at the moment you'd consider as 'magic'? My limited understanding is that at quantum level things which would seem magical based on our day to day lives' experience of and understanding of the world do very much happen - our physical world is actually very different to what we commonly think of it as.

My comment on this would be - what is that magic? Nearly all religious "miracles" are bullshit and can be dis-proven, or at least replicated. I can't think of anything in day to day life which needs a supernatural explanation.

Have a look at this video. In short though, particles behave in a certain way until you look at them and then their behaviour changes completely. Because you're looking at them.

holnrew

I grew up believing I wouldn't die, God would kill all the unbelievers and resurrect anybody who died. It sounds like nonsense, it still took me a very long time to accept death as being the end. I used to hold on to the fact that I could live on in any children I had, but now I don't want to bring humans into the world and fuck them up. All you can do is make the best of what you have. A legacy is less important than making the lives of those you love better, and taking in the small things. We're so infinitesimally unimportant in the grand scheme of things that our own and shared experience of the world is what matters.

Sporky

xibxang said:

fields5069 said:

My comment on this would be - what is that magic? Nearly all religious "miracles" are bullshit and can be dis-proven, or at least replicated. I can't think of anything in day to day life which needs a supernatural explanation.

Have a look at this video. In short though, particles behave in a certain way until you look at them and then their behaviour changes completely. Because you're looking at them.

I'm not sure the wave/particle duality is exactly "day to day life". Nor that it requires a supernatural explanation.

Ravenous

horse said:

Well for me the actual existence of the universe and our individual consciousness could do with some additional explanation

Very good point. Though I'm a smug atheist I have to admit science still can't explain those two specific points. (Not yet, anyway.)

I wouldn't consider these problems to be of a supernatural nature by the way; just unmeasurable at the moment. There was a time when people didn't even know about electricity...

xibxang

Sporky said:

xibxang said:

I'm not sure the wave/particle duality is exactly "day to day life". Nor that it requires a supernatural explanation.

Supernatural: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Consider also that this might be the tip of the iceberg of our understanding of quantum mechanics. Just because we can't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening and while it doesn't affect every day life at the moment, it could become the tool that we use to manipulate every day life in the future.

Wolfetone

aord43 said:

Wolfetone said:

I believe that our existence is so unbelievably fantastic, that there must surely be more to our being than the physical aspect.

The human (and animal) form is a mystifying and wonderful creation that still confounds understanding and science. As it's unravelled, the more astonishing it becomes. Our bodies are fantastic machines and it's 'operating system' could be described as our essence or 'soul'. It's well within the realms of my thinking that the physical and being are two separate things and therefore capable of different endings.

Putting my cards firmly on the table, I cannot believe that we weren't created and that there are unbelievable things to be eventually revealed. I am certain that the spirit travels on.

  

This is just "the argument from personal incredulity".  There are many things in the modern world that people from 1000 years ago would find impossible.
Just because you can't understand something is not an argument for magic.

I can't claim authorship of the following but this is just the tip of the iceberg. It will be a little longer until mankind can create such things.I think I wouldn't be alone in being amazed at our being.

I believe that there are more things to be revealed that instruments cannot measure yet. What about the unique nature of our irises and finger prints and DNA. Our creator has us individually and uniquely made. We are all utterly unique. Whether you are an believer or atheistic, surely, you cannot be nothing but staggered at our being. 

1. Trillion is a lot when it started with one:

Your body is made up of approximately 100 trillion cells. They all came from the division of one single cell. 300 million cells die every minute, but it’s really just a small fraction of the number we have. We produce 300 billion new cells every day and your body is constantly repairing and rebuilding.

2. Your brain is an amazing super-computer:

The brain can hold five times as much information as the Encyclopedia Britannica. Nerve impulses travel at 170 miles per hour. The brain is comprised of 80% water. Oh, and it does all this on the same amount of power as a 10-watt light bulb.

3. Hair today…:

Every day, the average person loses 60-100 strands of hair. But there’s good news, we have to lose over 50% of our scalp hairs before anyone notices. Also, hair is virtually indestructible. Aside from flammability, human hair decays at such a slow rate that it is practically non-disintegrative.

4. Your heart works its heart out for you:

The human heart creates enough pressure to squirt blood 30 feet. Such pressure is needed to pump blood through 60,000 miles of veins and capillaries. The heart pumps 6 quarts of blood, circulating three times every minute. In one day, your blood travels a total of 12,000 miles.

5. Your skin is the ultimate touch screen:

Each square inch of your skin includes four yards of nerve fibers, 600 pain sensors, 1300 nerve cells, 9000 nerve endings, 36 heat sensors, 75 pressure sensors, 100 sweat glands, 3 million cells, and 3 yards of blood vessels.

6. Your eyes alone are a study in genius:

Our eyes can distinguish up to one million color surfaces and take in more information than the largest telescope known to man. People blink once every four seconds. That’s because eyelashes act as windshield wipers, keeping dust and grime from getting into the eye itself.

7. The liver is a hardworking organ:

Your liver works hard at over 400 functions, including detoxification, protein synthesis, and the production of biochemicals necessary for digestion. However, you could have two-thirds of your liver removed from trauma or surgery, and it would grow back to its original size in four weeks time.

8. Take a deep breath:

Your lungs have a surface area the size of a tennis court. To oxygenate blood, our lungs are filled with thousands of microscopic capillaries. The large amount of surface area makes it easier for this to take place, and get the oxygen where it needs to go.

9. Your disposable stomach lining:

Your stomach gets a brand new lining every four days. Strong digestive acids quickly dissolve the mucus-like cells lining the walls of the stomach. So your body replaces them, routinely, before they are compromised.

10. No hiding from your fingerprints:

Just three months into the pregnancy, an unborn child already has fingerprints. At just 6-13 weeks of development, the distinctive whorls have already developed. Interestingly, those fingerprints will never change throughout a person’s life. And your fingerprints are your own unique bar code indicating the true miracle you are!f

horse

xibxang said:

Sporky said:

xibxang said:

I'm not sure the wave/particle duality is exactly "day to day life". Nor that it requires a supernatural explanation.

Supernatural: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Consider also that this might be the tip of the iceberg of our understanding of quantum mechanics. Just because we can't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening and while it doesn't affect every day life at the moment, it could become the tool that we use to manipulate every day life in the future.

I'd have thought that quantum superposition etc is absolutely part of the reality we experience all the time every day but is not understood how / why - not that I'd pretend to understand the first thing about physics. My point is really that it is all magic until we understand it, and part of what we come to understand in the future might include things which at the moment we'd regard as spiritual in nature, in terms of being outside our understood dimensions. Not saying I'm sure, but I can't see why I'd rule it out either

Wolfetone

Sporky said:

Wolfetone said:

It prompted me to remember what someone told me once and that was that people of faith have one thing other's don't and that is 'Hope'. 

I believe that 'Hope' is a driver for many and the reason why many don't give up when faced with adversity. I would prefer to live my life in a state of hope than in the certainty of eternal blackness. I think that the eternity of blackness makes it difficult to validate life and it's wonders, all that purpose and then nothing. I don't 'feel' that it's right to think that way.

What about all the heathens who don't give up in the face of adversity? What about just marvelling at the universe without demeaning it with a pointless creator? It's surely more amazing that things are how they are because they turned out that way (with a nice smattering of "if they didn't then they wouldn't have").

One could argue that seeing death as the final end is inspiring - this is what you get, no second chance, so you'd better make the most of it, not see it as a holding pattern for Life 2.0.

I can also understand that position. I personally wouldn't class anyone as 'Heathen' s that suggests a superiority when, in fact, there is no superiority. I am puzzled by the phrase 'pointless creator'. What is pointless about a creator? There either is or isn't a creator and there cannot a pointless one.

My view is that I find it incredibly difficult to conceive of the universe as an accidental thing as there is so much cleverness in it with nature being the main thing.

Going back to the original question by the OP, I can easily imagine that the being that we are can transfer and go elsewhere. It's as plausible a thought as there being nothing.

Ravenous

Wolfetone said:

2. Your brain is an amazing super-computer:

The brain can hold five times as much information as the Encyclopedia Britannica. Nerve impulses travel at 170 miles per hour. The brain is comprised of 80% water. Oh, and it does all this on the same amount of power as a 10-watt light bulb.

I thought the current estimates are that the brain uses up 20-25 percent of our calorie requirements - so maybe 20 watts I guess.

Most of these amazing figures are really just examples of the physical sciences and how interesting they are.

(EDIT - fixed maths. Probably a fault in the specific brain I was given.)