New Gibson CS R8s at World Guitars

ellwood

Moe_Zambeek said:

4K for an R7? Really? Don't these usually go for about 1600 quid?

Depends which one. And new or second me hand. I bought a True Historic and it was more than that (thank god for finance).

And yes, it is that good. 

ellwood

Chalky said:

"Gibsons are too expensive for what they are".

What is the obsession with saying this?  If something is too expensive for you, don't buy it. Problem solved!  If something is poor quality, don't buy it. Problem solved!  If something isn't worth its price tag, don't buy it. Problem solved!

Then the follow-up insinuation of "Some fools will buy them", as if those folks for whom Gibson prices are not 'too expensive' are idiots with money.  That's just disguised envy.

This same argument comes up every month, but only about Gibson, not other brands.  I don't defend Gibson or their prices - I'm just curious as to why this obsession about making these comments about Gibson prices has been around for at least 15-20 years if not more.

I'm sure there is a great thesis to be written about it.

This...

skaguitar

why do World Guitars have a 'no part exchange' policy on some of their guitars...?.. in these days of trades being the only viable option for someone to afford something they want they must be cutting their potential customer base by I would say 70-75%... I understand they don't want to be stuck with a load of unsellable 2nd hand guitars but if someone wanted a Huber Orca for example and offered a nice custom shop R7 in part exchange..?

Powerslave

skaguitar said:

why do World Guitars have a 'no part exchange' policy on some of their guitars...?.. in these days of trades being the only viable option for someone to afford something they want they must be cutting their potential customer base by I would say 70-75%... I understand they don't want to be stuck with a load of unsellable 2nd hand guitars but if someone wanted a Huber Orca for example and offered a nice custom shop R7 in part exchange..?

With some guitars - particularly Huber (which I believe are exclusive to World in the UK) - then they probably know that someone (probably from Jeff's old little black book of customers) - will drop the cash on the guitar, which is likely to have a hefty profit margin for them. They don't particularly want to have to trim this particular mark-up by taking the px route.

I guess other times it happens at World and elsewhere when they're having a bit of a relative blow-out and have already cut their profit margin and need to see a nominal amount of cash for a guitar.

And there will be some models of guitar which just don't fit the World ethos - their returning customer base simply wouldn't be interested (for example: Jeff wouldn't take PRS SE guitars in on px!) and such guitars would just sit, or you would be offered an insulting px value.

The price rises for Gibson CS LP's has been eye-watering - down to Gibson's year-on-year price increases, and the fall of the pound against the dollar.

From memory - from 2013 to now - 58's have risen by 1000 GBP - and 59's by 1400 GBP.

That's why Peach's BF sale last weekend was very good value - essentially, John was offering new CS LP's at 2013 pricing.

In turn, I think used prices have began to show a slight (aspirational?) climb in-line with these "new" price increases (certainly models from 2013+). So people are asking around 2.5k for a used 58 from 2013, and perhaps seeing offers around 2.2k / 2.3k? As daft as it may sound to some - if it's in good condition, and speaks to you - then that's a fair price, and your money is mostly safe in the event of a quick re-sale.

For similar money, you could alternatively buy a 2018 USA Standard - good examples to be had, I'm sure, but I think I'd be looking CS every time.

ThorpyFX

Chalky said:

"Gibsons are too expensive for what they are".

What is the obsession with saying this?  If something is too expensive for you, don't buy it. Problem solved!  If something is poor quality, don't buy it. Problem solved!  If something isn't worth its price tag, don't buy it. Problem solved!

Then the follow-up insinuation of "Some fools will buy them", as if those folks for whom Gibson prices are not 'too expensive' are idiots with money.  That's just disguised envy.

This same argument comes up every month, but only about Gibson, not other brands.  I don't defend Gibson or their prices - I'm just curious as to why this obsession about making these comments about Gibson prices has been around for at least 15-20 years if not more.

I'm sure there is a great thesis to be written about it.

I think Gibson are easy targets because they appear to be the only company charging a top end premium price and yet their QC means that it’s still a crapshoot as to whether you get finishing imperfections or even build errors that you wouldn’t accept at a £500 price point. Like them or loathe them, this sort of thing rarely happens with PRS or other similarly priced guitars.

in short it appears that Gibson are pumping out (at times) British Leyland quality and trying to charge BMW prices.

that being said, there is a romance to the brand that seems to mean people are blind to Gibson’s errors, they wouldn’t accept it from any other brand and comments along the lines of “for £1000 I expect it to be perfect out of the box” have been levelled against a new brand recently, so why is Gibson allowed to get away with this crap at the £2K up price point?


and I guess that’s why the comment keeps coming up, because Gibson haven’t changed and people are amazed by it.

by the way, I love my SGs so wtf do I know.

RandallFlagg

ThorpyFX said:

Chalky said:

"Gibsons are too expensive for what they are".

What is the obsession with saying this?  If something is too expensive for you, don't buy it. Problem solved!  If something is poor quality, don't buy it. Problem solved!  If something isn't worth its price tag, don't buy it. Problem solved!

Then the follow-up insinuation of "Some fools will buy them", as if those folks for whom Gibson prices are not 'too expensive' are idiots with money.  That's just disguised envy.

This same argument comes up every month, but only about Gibson, not other brands.  I don't defend Gibson or their prices - I'm just curious as to why this obsession about making these comments about Gibson prices has been around for at least 15-20 years if not more.

I'm sure there is a great thesis to be written about it.

I think Gibson are easy targets because they appear to be the only company charging a top end premium price and yet their QC means that it’s still a crapshoot as to whether you get finishing imperfections or even build errors that you wouldn’t accept at a £500 price point. Like them or loathe them, this sort of thing rarely happens with PRS or other similarly priced guitars.

in short it appears that Gibson are pumping out (at times) British Leyland quality and trying to charge BMW prices.

that being said, there is a romance to the brand that seems to mean people are blind to Gibson’s errors, they wouldn’t accept it from any other brand and comments along the lines of “for £1000 I expect it to be perfect out of the box” have been levelled against a new brand recently, so why is Gibson allowed to get away with this crap at the £2K up price point?


and I guess that’s why the comment keeps coming up, because Gibson haven’t changed and people are amazed by it.

by the way, I love my SGs so wtf do I know.

That wasn't;t my point in my opening post. I was happy to pay £3.3K in March 2016 for my R8, it's a great guitar and worth the money. My point is that the price has increased 30% in 18 months for the same guitar. That's way above any currency fluctuations and inflation. That's the bit I'm surprised about.

Guitars go up 30%, pay goes us 2% if we're lucky.

RandallFlagg

LesbianWithAGun said:

I actually have a used American Fender Duluxe Stratocaster that's stock and has a really awesome tone.

That is an awesome guitar, I paid like £850.00 for it.
I really looked at it because it reminded me of my first buy/my first guitar, only not cheap and horrible made out of ply wood, but the real deal because it's a Fender Stratocaster, and not a Tanglewood Nevada 32K.
As far as it's tone, love it (unplugged) and it a nice/neat/cool guitar, but, I'm so in love with the tone of my Les Pauls, it gets played but.... Not as much as my Gibsons.
Love it it, first time since 2003 I've seen one in this same finish I love/have wanted for years, which is hard to find, so I bought it, September 2016.

Teal Ash...

This however has a maple neck, like Hendrix and Clapton's... So that's cool, my first guitar purchase and this Fender I saw in 2003 with that same finish has a rosewood fretboard...
It's the same colour but a different factory from my first buy - I know this because I still have it and they're both in the same multi-guitar stand... My Gibsons are on their own stands to hand next to the amp. Different brands of stands so, one looks taller than the other or whatever, but whatever, I got them to throw in a guitar stand with my R7, and they kindly gave me what I got, but when they were selling it, it was hanging on the wall next to another goldtop that had a bright back.

What on earth are you gurning on about?

underdog

All this talk of Gibson's obscene pricing yet I rarely see fender being whinged about when they charge £3k or more for a collection of mass produced, interchangable parts crudely screwed together.

RandallFlagg

underdog said:

All this talk of Gibson's obscene pricing yet I rarely see fender being whinged about when they charge £3k or more for a collection of mass produced, interchangable parts crudely screwed together.

Don't you mean:

"carefully selected tone woods, with hand wound pickups, wound by the same person than wound Jimi Hendrix' pickups, with carefully aged and exclusive hardware manufactured on the same equipment Leo Fender purchased in 1951, all skilfully put together by our dedicated artisans and highly skilled luthiers"

sunshinewelly

I have gone the other way and have sold most of my expensive guitars. I have sold an R9 and a masterbuilt strat in the last 6 months because as far as the strat was concerned my strat plus feels the better guitar despite it being one quarter of the price. Same goes for my gibson Rosa corsa. It just plays and sounds better than the R9 so why keep the R9. 

DefaultM

Thanks for this, I needed a laugh.

Chalky

@thorpyfx said "...why is Gibson allowed to get away with this crap at the £2K up price point?"

"Allowed to get away with it?" Does someone dictate to you what price you can charge for your pedals?  Have we returned to price controls? No.

I refer you to my first point:

If something is too expensive for you, don't buy it. Problem solved!  If something is poor quality, don't buy it. Problem solved!  If something isn't worth its price tag, don't buy it. Problem solved!

The fact remains that Gibson produce some of the best guitars on the planet.  If you don't agree.......again, I refer you to my first point....

ThorpyFX

Chalky said:

@thorpyfx said "...why is Gibson allowed to get away with this crap at the £2K up price point?"

"Allowed to get away with it?" Does someone dictate to you what price you can charge for your pedals?  Have we returned to price controls? No.

I refer you to my first point:

If something is too expensive for you, don't buy it. Problem solved!  If something is poor quality, don't buy it. Problem solved!  If something isn't worth its price tag, don't buy it. Problem solved!

The fact remains that Gibson produce some of the best guitars on the planet.  If you don't agree.......again, I refer you to my first point....

you missed my point, what i mean is.... market forces (i.e. the power of the consumer) haven't tempered Gibson in any way shape or form. The brand is so strong that they can seemingly push out items that are devoid of decent QC at ever increasing prices and nobody bats an eyelid. If other companies did the same, they would go bust very quickly.

and this isn't an opinion I hold solely myself, lots of dealers have dumped the company because of the above reasoning (amongst other things)

And i say this as an individual who has owned Gibson guitars (and I still own two secondhand ones) in the past. Indeed my £'s go elsewhere these days, and thats because I do not believe they produce some of the best guitars on the planet.

IMHO That honour goes to the smaller brands.

ellwood

Whilst there is no denying some variable QC in the Gibson mainstream product - does anyone have any significant experience of the same variance in the Custom Shop product? 

Schnozz

RandallFlagg said:

LesbianWithAGun said:

I actually have a used American Fender Duluxe Stratocaster that's stock and has a really awesome tone.

That is an awesome guitar, I paid like £850.00 for it.
I really looked at it because it reminded me of my first buy/my first guitar, only not cheap and horrible made out of ply wood, but the real deal because it's a Fender Stratocaster, and not a Tanglewood Nevada 32K.
As far as it's tone, love it (unplugged) and it a nice/neat/cool guitar, but, I'm so in love with the tone of my Les Pauls, it gets played but.... Not as much as my Gibsons.
Love it it, first time since 2003 I've seen one in this same finish I love/have wanted for years, which is hard to find, so I bought it, September 2016.

Teal Ash...

This however has a maple neck, like Hendrix and Clapton's... So that's cool, my first guitar purchase and this Fender I saw in 2003 with that same finish has a rosewood fretboard...
It's the same colour but a different factory from my first buy - I know this because I still have it and they're both in the same multi-guitar stand... My Gibsons are on their own stands to hand next to the amp. Different brands of stands so, one looks taller than the other or whatever, but whatever, I got them to throw in a guitar stand with my R7, and they kindly gave me what I got, but when they were selling it, it was hanging on the wall next to another goldtop that had a bright back.

What on earth are you gurning on about?

@LesbianWithAGun - If you tightened that strap up so the guitar sat over your trouser pocket, the attack angle would make things a lot easier for your right hand (and you'd still look cool etc).

I think this thread is trying to assist people in seeing through the marketing/inflation bullshit that the big brands love, but there's no helping people sometimes.

I tried to do it when Musicman released the 'Old Smoothie', but again...

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tQh03M0kyy4/hqdefault.jpg

ThorpyFX

ellwood said:

Whilst there is no denying some variable QC in the Gibson mainstream product - does anyone have any significant experience of the same variance in the Custom Shop product? 

my friends CS is a stunning guitar but the dye has bled all over the binding. I had a CS VOS SG a few years ago and the nitro on the horn turned yellow then started to come away from the body. 
aside from those two instances, they seem pretty consistent.

rico

£4K would let you employ a tutor. 

stickyfiddle

ThorpyFX said:

ellwood said:

Whilst there is no denying some variable QC in the Gibson mainstream product - does anyone have any significant experience of the same variance in the Custom Shop product? 

my friends CS is a stunning guitar but the dye has bled all over the binding. I had a CS VOS SG a few years ago and the nitro on the horn turned yellow then started to come away from the body. 
aside from those two instances, they seem pretty consistent.

Just like the old ones... FWIW I don't mind a bit of colour bleed in binding and such, as long as the rest of the guitar is phenomenal. 

I think Gibson has realised that the top-end CS stuff is sitting in a portion of the market where people have plenty of money. Noone struggling to pay the bills is buying CS Les Pauls new, it doesn't matter whether they cost 3.5k or 5k. Once you're in that market you can charge extra and most people who are genuinely potential buyers will still make the decision based on how much they want one, not how much the price affects their bank balance. You might even find that Gibson can triple its per-guitar margin but only halve the number of sales, making for a better return on investment (although they *do* need pure unadulterated cashflow to service their debt, but that's another thread)

Compared to just about any other musical instrument guitars are *really* cheap. Even 5k+ Gibsons.

Moe_Zambeek

CS SGs are 4K now. You'd have to be smoking crack to pay 4K for a new SG....

Jez6345789

The good news is that PRS Guitars normally only affordable to Lawyers and Dentist.
World Guitars have a nice single cut 594 for just 3295 an absolute snip.

LOL