The wide neck guitar criminal!

The23rdman

octatonic said:

There is a lot of information out there and you really can't use ignorance as an excuse.

What makes people here exasperated and amused about your work (IMHO) is a combination of the weird combination of hardware, the highly atypical setup choices and your attitude.

Nail firmly hit. 

mdphillips1956

Antique_Guitars said:

Hello,

Okay I wondered if the nut complaints would be about the depth of the string grooves in the nut.

I have heard it stated in more than one place that the wound strings should be half the strings diameter into the nut and the plain one a whole string diameter... ie. They should be pretty much on the surface.

I have tried many different nut grooves and to my ear it makes absolutely no difference at all how deep they are; in fact if it does need to be only half a string's width, mine are spot on as they are not in narrow slots but in the bottom of Vee shaped grooves so they sit exactly as strings would on the top surface of the nut in half string diameter grooves!

In fact I believe strings would be just as happy if they were bonded into the nut material and emerged held solidly... trouble is you would have to tune them at the bridge like a hideous Floyd Rose wobbly thing!

You even accuse me of sloping the string groove towards the bridge not away from it... although you cannot see from the picture which way they slope? If they did slope towards the bridge the guitar would be a chorus of funny harmonic buzzes.

I think the main problem here, is that what you believe you know about how I do things, is actually just what you have read everyone on here telling each other "he does this and he does that", when it is all complete conjecture; and the few bits I have located so far are complete fabrication.

Mark,

The strings are buried far too deep into the nut they should really only be sitting about halfway into it (maybe a bit more for heavy players), this can make the strings sound dead and create weird overtones.

Will Kelly from vintage guitar magazine gives a good practical explanation (see from about the 4.30 point)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDEIYzxR5PE

underdog

Ah as predicted by a few, your way is right and everything else is wrong, the fact the other way is used by the know nothing's at Gibson, fender, Tokai, Morgan, arrow head, feline, squire, and in fact every other guitar maker in the world proves nothing.

The23rdman

mdphillips1956 said:

Antique_Guitars said:

Hello,

Okay I wondered if the nut complaints would be about the depth of the string grooves in the nut.

I have heard it stated in more than one place that the wound strings should be half the strings diameter into the nut and the plain one a whole string diameter... ie. They should be pretty much on the surface.

I have tried many different nut grooves and to my ear it makes absolutely no difference at all how deep they are; in fact if it does need to be only half a string's width, mine are spot on as they are not in narrow slots but in the bottom of Vee shaped grooves so they sit exactly as strings would on the top surface of the nut in half string diameter grooves!

In fact I believe strings would be just as happy if they were bonded into the nut material and emerged held solidly... trouble is you would have to tune them at the bridge like a hideous Floyd Rose wobbly thing!

You even accuse me of sloping the string groove towards the bridge not away from it... although you cannot see from the picture which way they slope? If they did slope towards the bridge the guitar would be a chorus of funny harmonic buzzes.

I think the main problem here, is that what you believe you know about how I do things, is actually just what you have read everyone on here telling each other "he does this and he does that", when it is all complete conjecture; and the few bits I have located so far are complete fabrication.

Mark,

The strings are buried far too deep into the nut they should really only be sitting about halfway into it (maybe a bit more for heavy players), this can make the strings sound dead and create weird overtones.

Will Kelly from vintage guitar magazine gives a good practical explanation (see from about the 4.30 point)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDEIYzxR5PE

Mark, the information we have based our opinions on are your detailed descriptions on eBay and the photographic evidence. Why don't you just admit that you are wrong and this thread might serve some use? If you use it as a free resource to improve your service and products everyone wins. If you continue to dig your heels in and refuse to accept that you are in a minority of one when it comes to set-up and "improvement" of guitars we will continue to post negative comments and share the obvious truth. 

mdphillips1956

octatonic said:

mdphillips1956 said:

I was going to say, that by choice I like the look of strings right on the surface of the nut; unfortunately in revised guitars where parts are not made bespoke for that model, it is very unlikely you can arrive at having the strings just half a string diameter into the nut unless you are prepared to tolerate a guitar where the string also clears the first fret-wire by about 3mm... unplayable in my book.

If I was building guitars that sold for £2,000 I would certainly first cut the string grooves to get the strings to just clear the first fret-wire by a milimicrobe, then I would knock the nut off again and grind away everything but the final half a mill of the string grooves... but I sell guitars for around £200 not £2,000 and with the best will in the world you really do have devote the time more to things that actually matter.

Mark...............

However, that nut is perfectly functional... what particularly don't you like about it?

Maybe what is going on here is you just don't know how to do the jobs you are trying to do and you are unaware of how wrong it is.

Your nut cutting is not remotely close to being right- trust us on this.

When you say it is 'fully functional', it isn't.

It isn't even close.

It really does look like you went at it with a bandsaw, or a handsaw- how did you actually perform the job?

If you are serious about learning how to do it properly then there are some fairly cheap tools that allow you to do the job right.

As Sheldon (Antique Guitars) said, you don't bury the string in the nut.

Also you should have the high point of the nut closest to the bridge, with the nut slot cut so it slopes away.

This is nut cutting 101, a very basic, rudimentary thing to know.

This isn't voodoo- setting up guitars is fairly easy with the right information and the right tools provided you practice it and are able to admit when you haven't do it right.

There is a lot of information out there and you really can't use ignorance as an excuse.

What makes people here exasperated and amused about your work (IMHO) is a combination of the weird combination of hardware, the highly atypical setup choices and your attitude.

octatonic

mdphillips1956 said:Hello,

Okay I wondered if the nut complaints would be about the depth of the string grooves in the nut.

I have heard it stated in more than one place that the wound strings should be half the strings diameter into the nut and the plain one a whole string diameter... ie. They should be pretty much on the surface.

I have tried many different nut grooves and to my ear it makes absolutely no difference at all how deep they are; in fact if it does need to be only half a string's width, mine are spot on as they are not in narrow slots but in the bottom of Vee shaped grooves so they sit exactly as strings would on the top surface of the nut in half string diameter grooves!

In fact I believe strings would be just as happy if they were bonded into the nut material and emerged held solidly... trouble is you would have to tune them at the bridge like a hideous Floyd Rose wobbly thing!

You even accuse me of sloping the string groove towards the bridge not away from it... although you cannot see from the picture which way they slope? If they did slope towards the bridge the guitar would be a chorus of funny harmonic buzzes.

I think the main problem here, is that what you believe you know about how I do things, is actually just what you have read everyone on here telling each other "he does this and he does that", when it is all complete conjecture; and the few bits I have located so far are complete fabrication.

Mark,

Actually I didn't accuse you of failing to slope the nut- I provided you the information which is that is how you do it properly- you seem to be blissfully unaware of how it should be done so I was, in fact, trying to help you.

To the rest of it- you are simply wrong and trying to hide either laziness or ignorance behind bravado.

There is a huge difference between your nut cutting and the correct way.

To say that 'to your ear it makes no difference' just means that you don't know what you are listening for.

I was kinda hoping that you were just clueless and a bit of gentle instruction about where to look and how to do things would set you on the correct path.

It seems though that you're going to pigheadedly insist that you know what you are doing, which is a pity.

You have a tremendous opportunity here to take what you currently do and turn it into something that is actually worthwhile.

Sticking to your guns and doubling down here won't help you, not even a little.

As to what I know- well I've studied with some pretty good guitar builders, studied and read up on guitars and guitar building for a long time now and not a single other person does what you do.

So.... either you are a genius maverick who is out there on the ragged edge of guitar innovation and the rest of us guitar builders and repairers are sad and deluded, following the 'old conventional way' of doing things OR you've a bit mad and quite ignorant.

Which do you think is more likely?

littlegreenman

mdphillips1956 said:

I was going to say, that by choice I like the look of strings right on the surface of the nut; unfortunately in revised guitars where parts are not made bespoke for that model, it is very unlikely you can arrive at having the strings just half a string diameter into the nut unless you are prepared to tolerate a guitar where the string also clears the first fret-wire by about 3mm... unplayable in my book.

If I was building guitars that sold for £2,000 I would certainly first cut the string grooves to get the strings to just clear the first fret-wire by a milimicrobe, then I would knock the nut off again and grind away everything but the final half a mill of the string grooves... but I sell guitars for around £200 not £2,000 and with the best will in the world you really do have devote the time more to things that actually matter.

Mark...............

Having fitted 100's of new nuts to almost every type of guitar whilst working in a guitar shop for many years I can honestly say that what you have just posted is simply not true. That is all.

jd0272

The Thread That Keeps On Giving. Sorry, I'm a bit bored waiting for my noodles to cool down.

p90fool

He's not actually wrong y'know. If, as he says, the strings are sat in an over-wide V-shaped groove then the excess protruding above the string plays no part.

It's ugly and unconventional, but it's not "wrong".

blueskunk

^^^ Hahahaha ^^^

guitargeek62

mdphillips1956 said:

I was going to say, that by choice I like the look of strings right on the surface of the nut; unfortunately in revised guitars where parts are not made bespoke for that model, it is very unlikely you can arrive at having the strings just half a string diameter into the nut unless you are prepared to tolerate a guitar where the string also clears the first fret-wire by about 3mm... unplayable in my book.

Are you trying to say that it's impossible to shape a nut accurately from a blank, to fit any size neck & string spacing? Because that's how it reads to me, and quite truthfully that would be completely false.

guitargeek62

p90fool said:

He's not actually wrong y'know. If, as he says, the strings are sat in an over-wide V-shaped groove then the excess protruding above the string plays no part.

It's ugly and unconventional, but it's not "wrong".

It is wrong, the string should be seated evenly underneath - not just "pinched" by the sides of the V. If it is, then you get binding issues which cause major pitch problems during bending or tuning.

octatonic

mdphillips1956 said:

If I was building guitars that sold for £2,000 I would certainly first cut the string grooves to get the strings to just clear the first fret-wire by a milimicrobe, then I would knock the nut off again and grind away everything but the final half a mill of the string grooves... but I sell guitars for around £200 not £2,000 and with the best will in the world you really do have devote the time more to things that actually matter.

Mark...............

Mark, please learn to quote properly- it takes me 5 mins to clean up your post to make sure the quotes are right.

(Imagine how much time it would take me to fix your guitars).

To your statement above- now we are getting somewhere.

You are admitting that you are being slapdash with your approach- this is progress.

If you knew what you were doing you could cut a nut properly in under an hour.

The more you do it the better you get.

What is MORE likely is you don't know how to do one properly.

You don't need to make it accurate to a millimicrobe- within 0.25mm should be enough, at least for the first few.

It takes no more time to do that than it takes to bodge one, if you are skilled at it and know how to do it properly.

It doesn't matter if you are selling guitars for £50- a badly cut nut is evidence poor workmanship.

The guitar building and playing communities look down upon that- which is why this and the other thread exist.

We actually care about guitars.

You said in email to me that someone bought the guitar I commented on.

Being able to fleece a few people on ebay is not proof of the worth of your method or company.

If you are going to be held to the standard that other guitar repairers are then, frankly, we find you lacking.

Personally I'd be utterly ashamed to churning out the sort of 'work' you are.

What nut cutting tools do you own?

What inspection tools?

octatonic

guitargeek62 said:

p90fool said:

He's not actually wrong y'know. If, as he says, the strings are sat in an over-wide V-shaped groove then the excess protruding above the string plays no part.

It's ugly and unconventional, but it's not "wrong".

It is wrong, the string should be seated evenly underneath - not just "pinched" by the sides of the V. If it is, then you get binding issues which cause major pitch problems during bending or tuning.

This in spades.

Again, Nut Cutting 101.

Gassage

Respect for rocking up though !!

mdphillips1956

funstuie said:

mdphillips1956 said:

Hello,

And what a shock... and sorry etc as well, but I really cannot remember you or you contacting me about any problems with the guitar you mention.

Have I ever sold an Encore for £140? I rather doubt it.

Did you leave me bad feedback? I certainly have no memory of it.

If you were ten miles away with a guitar problem I would say bring it here and we will sort it out for free... even if it had been bought of someone else!

As far as I am aware I had always had 100% good feedback until a funny bloke bought a bass off me for £97 then made up silly stories and wanted me to take it back... it arrived back with its strings cut!

Are you sure this guitar was from me? 

Thanks,

Mark................

Yep it was from you. It would have been very late December 2012, obviously I can't link to the ebay auction from that time as it's long gone as are the communications between us but I have been able to find the paypal transaction and I have to apologise as I got the fee wrong it was £124 including postage. I offered to bring the guitar back to you, I advised where I live but you refused to give me an address or time. I asked numerous times and eventually you stopped responding to me so I stopped emailing you. 

I didn't leave bad feedback as I was trying to work it out with you before doing so but work/life got in the way and by the time I wanted to post feedback it was 4 weeks later which I figured wouldn't be worth it. I don't have time for petty squabbles with people on ebay. Luckily I could afford to write off £124 as a mistake so I moved on. 

What have I got to gain from lying about this?

Well it sounds real now so my sincere apologies, although I cannot remember you yet, or our communications about the problem.

I was certain I had never sold an Encore for £140 plus £17.50, but £124 all in is quite possible.

What did you say was wrong with the guitar? Was it damaged in transit or just something you didn't like about it?

You could have just put it back in its packaging and posted it back to me... in fact I am very happy for you to do that now and I will fix it and post back to you.

I am probably over cautious but in having two kids and a pregnant wife here it is a bit too chaotic for house calls, which is why I settled for ebay selling with postage... and I would want to re string, re set up, and let it settle for a night then set up again the next day... so I want the guitar for a couple of days.

The offer is there; and I bet it will come back playing better than the one you bought in Brighton!

Cheers,

Mark................

monofin

How can so many people in one place be so wrong. And there was me thinking this place was full of good info.

I'm now totally disillusioned and want my nuts changing to these new medieval versions - I've seen the light

guitargeek62

monofin said:

How can so many people in one place be so wrong. And there was me thinking this place was full of good info.

I'm now totally disillusioned and want my nuts changing to these new medieval versions - I've seen the light

Well to be fair, a lot of people thought the world was flat not so long ago - and there're still a few who refuse to accept otherwise, even in the face of perfect evidence.

monofin

Also does anyone now of a good source for cheap single coil neck pickups that won't quite fit my Les Paul?
Might as well go the whole hog!

Gassage

Mark - please take no notice of our jolly japery - have you considered approaching Cash Convertors to become their resident tech ?

I think it's a match made in heaven.