And we wonder why the high street is going down the tubes...

zepp76

downbytheriver said:

Gretsch G5655TG - really rather nice Jr sized Gretsch, centre block, black top Filtertrons, the one I was looking at is Snow Crest White with gold hardware - lovely. 

On the wall in my local shop at £819 (though oddly on their website at £779). 

I looked on on the web to gain a bit of traction for negotiation... 

various offerings (all reputable) from £799 down to £679. Already I’m thinking that I can’t ask for that price from my local... 

Thomann - £517 SHIPPED. 

I understand economies of scale and big orders attracting discounts but REALLY? Fender will have no shops to sell to at this rate. 

(My wife doesn’t like gold on white so I’m not shopping - but I would have gone Thomann - who wouldn’t?) 

I’m going to forget about the pricing situation for a moment and ask you a different question. You say the white guitar was lovely then go on
to say you’re not shopping for one because your wife doesn’t like the colour scheme, I’m single so am intrigued to know if this is how marriage really works? Your wife doesn’t like something you like so you can’t own it and play it? Kind of makes me happy to be single if that’s the case! 

bgmartinsbridge

Amazon warehouse and buying power versus the biggest guitar shops infrastructure. 
High street business rates and vat versus limited tax. 
Indie shop with no buying power or range plus business rates.

Having worked online ten/ fifteen years ago I saw it all coming (I remember being told don't worry about margin, we're growing a busjness) and whilst the government has spoken about it and created discussion groups, nothing has been done. 

We envisaged shops to go and view products and then buy via a portal in store for home delivery. Which is nearly here. 

Saving grace for musical instruments is that they are not the same (unlike a washing machine) but still people won't pay a premium from a small shop because unlike a decade ago people can now compare prices easier. 

downbytheriver

zepp76 said:

downbytheriver said:

Gretsch G5655TG - really rather nice Jr sized Gretsch, centre block, black top Filtertrons, the one I was looking at is Snow Crest White with gold hardware - lovely. 

On the wall in my local shop at £819 (though oddly on their website at £779). 

I looked on on the web to gain a bit of traction for negotiation... 

various offerings (all reputable) from £799 down to £679. Already I’m thinking that I can’t ask for that price from my local... 

Thomann - £517 SHIPPED. 

I understand economies of scale and big orders attracting discounts but REALLY? Fender will have no shops to sell to at this rate. 

(My wife doesn’t like gold on white so I’m not shopping - but I would have gone Thomann - who wouldn’t?) 

I’m going to forget about the pricing situation for a moment and ask you a different question. You say the white guitar was lovely then go on
to say you’re not shopping for one because your wife doesn’t like the colour scheme, I’m single so am intrigued to know if this is how marriage really works? Your wife doesn’t like something you like so you can’t own it and play it? Kind of makes me happy to be single if that’s the case! 

Yup. Works for me. 

Haych

Almost every day for a while my lunchtime routine would be to mooch around the high street music shops in the city where I work.  I got to know most of the sales staff quite well and they were happy for me to just stare at the wall of guitars and amps or let me try stuff out knowing that I probably wasn't going to buy anything.

It worked for them too though as there were times when I would buy stuff, usually small value items like strings and pedals but it was great having an environment where you could actually try stuff out.

One day while I was in one of the shops some young guys walked in and asked to try out a guitar because they'd seen one online and wanted to see what it was like.  The manager obliged but knew full well he wouldn't get the sale because he couldn't compete on price with the online store.

That shop closed its doors a couple of years ago for a 'refit' but never reopened.  Such a shame, it was a great shop with a great atmosphere and great staff.  One of the only decent places locally that you could get decent and interesting used gear too.

I'm guilty of buying online for the best price as much as the next person but when it comes to guitars I would gladly pay a bit more to be able to try out the particular instrument I'm thinking of buying.

axisus

If you go to shops and try 10 strats, LPs, whatever, there is invariably one that is sweeter. Order from the box shifters and you get the top box. Enjoy saving a bit of money for your (on probability) lesser guitar!

Paul7926

I get the argument about the shop being more than just a warehouse and paying more there than online helps keep the shop and it's associated services alive.  I don't mind paying more from a shop to cover that sort of thing.  My first guitar came from a shop and was about 10% more because of that.  Now it was a dirt cheap guitar so we were only talking a few quid so it wasn't a real decision I just got it from the shop. 

It's when that difference becomes huge that it's difficult to justify.  In the OP we are talking about a difference between roughly £500 and £800.  Lets be honest for a moment you would have to really love the store (and/or be super rich) to hand over that additional £300 to them.

I agree with a post a little above this one.  High street shops are going to simply become delivery/return points soon.  Almost no stock and what's there will be just because it's been returned by someone else and not collected yet.

In the case of guitar shops they will only exist on the back of in house experts for set-ups, custom work and amp repairs and small second hand selections of higher priced instruments/amps/pedals.  

Jalapeno

Didn't we just do this debate 2-3 weeks ago ?

When I want a box, I choose a box shifter. 

When I want service, and/or an expensive guitar I choose a proper retailer and I'm happy to pay for the privelege - but there aren't that many around these days (Phil's Vintage & modern (20 mins away), World Guitars  (a day out), Coda (30 mins), or Peach (also a day out) - also a shout out to Guitar Village (2hrs away), RIP Ivor Mairants too)

High St business rates are the crippler compared with those for a shed in a field.

Sassafras

I just find it sad in general that all the independent shops are being forced out by the mega corporations, where's the variety. Do we really want High Streets that look identical no matter where you are. Characterless clones of each other?

Haych

Jalapeno said:

High St business rates are the crippler compared with those for a shed in a field.

This ^!

I don't know what the solution is but the high street cannot compete on price alone.  I'd hate for an online sales tax to be introduced, but it probably will at some point in the future.

Rates and rents need to be realistic, though. My local village is a ghost town simply because the shop lettings are managed by a London business who would rather see empty shops than let them out at affordable rates that a business can absorb and still make a profit.

thermionic

Buy it from Thomann for £517, sell on ebay for £700 with the description "Never been played and these guitars are £819 in the shops!".

impmann

Paul7926 said:

In the case of guitar shops they will only exist on the back of in house experts for set-ups, custom work and amp repairs and small second hand selections of higher priced instruments/amps/pedals.  

Interestingly, though... most amp repair engineers are a similar age and are getting close to retirement. What happens then? And to be honest the costs of running a repair shop out the back of a high street shop are expensive. Very expensive compared to a small industrial unit or a domestic garage...

Plus... secondhand. Its not selling. None of it is. Its a dead market and everyone buying seems to think they can get it cheaper elsewhere and everyone selling seems to think that something is 'vintage' if its more than 15 years old and therefore prices it accordingly... to use an industry term "the channel is full". There is now more equipment available for sale than could possibly all find homes - hence "mega blow outs" of bad selling new stock (such as that EHX Overdrive pedal that nobody bought at full price - and now just £34 delivered) and then that affects the ability to sell secondhand stuff. Why would you buy a secondhand pedal for £40 that sounds incredibly similar to one thats £34 new...? And there are HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of secondhand overdrive pedals for sale today.

Knowing what I know from the inside of the industry, I imagine that Hans Thomann has bought a lot of those Gretsch guitars for below cost price as a blow out from Fender (who own/distribute Gretsch). The margins on anything from Fender are tight at best, so I'm guessing that this guitar is end of life - that means they won't be making any more, not that its dead - and so they have blown them out to a big store to free up some funds/warehouse space ahead of the run up to NAMM in January. If so, its got very little to do with the death of the High Street but more to do with how much product is in the market, and how few people are buying it. 

ICBM

Haych said:

Jalapeno said:

High St business rates are the crippler compared with those for a shed in a field.

This ^!

I don't know what the solution is but the high street cannot compete on price alone.

The solution is political, and is to reverse the business rates regime so that out-of-town is more expensive per unit area than High Street. Will it happen? I have no idea - probably not as it would be unpopular if people find they can no longer drive to a retail park and buy their cheap consumer products. But it very much should, since the whole point of city business rates being higher in the first place was to reflect the greater profitability and hence desirability to businesses of being in the city.

Haych

ICBM said:

Haych said:

Jalapeno said:

High St business rates are the crippler compared with those for a shed in a field.

This ^!

I don't know what the solution is but the high street cannot compete on price alone.

The solution is political, and is to reverse the business rates regime so that out-of-town is more expensive per unit area than High Street. Will it happen? I have no idea - probably not as it would be unpopular if people find they can no longer drive to a retail park and buy their cheap consumer products. But it very much should, since the whole point of city business rates being higher in the first place was to reflect the greater profitability and hence desirability to businesses of being in the city.

I agree, the solution is political.  This worries me as politics is bassackwards at the best of times and common sense is remarkably absent from most political decisions.

downbytheriver

thermionic said:

Buy it from Thomann for £517, sell on ebay for £700 with the description "Never been played and these guitars are £819 in the shops!".

This price is less than the average (and even the very large) shops can buy it for - surprised they aren’t buying them! 

downbytheriver

Also, this is a relatively recent guitar - it’s sn Electromatic that is made in China - a recent change from Korea. 

FelineGuitars

Haych said:

Jalapeno said:

High St business rates are the crippler compared with those for a shed in a field.

This ^!

I don't know what the solution is but the high street cannot compete on price alone.  I'd hate for an online sales tax to be introduced, but it probably will at some point in the future.

Rates and rents need to be realistic, though. My local village is a ghost town simply because the shop lettings are managed by a London business who would rather see empty shops than let them out at affordable rates that a business can absorb and still make a profit.

And the banks that technically own the properties wont even allow landlords let them out for a lesser figure

BeardyAndy

adamm82 said:

BeardyAndy said:

steven70 said:

downbytheriver said:

steven70 said:

In theory...used to be the case when I was younger, these days most of the places I have visited are staffed by morons who couldn't give a toss and they don't have decent stock anyway so it's easier to research online and buy from a megastore.

Precisely this, sadly. Doesn’t particularly apply to my local store but it is increasingly the case in most establishments. 

Yep, not all stores...my comment did sound a bit harsh. 

Also aware there's more than one side to it, e.g. folks who might go into a store, try the gear, take the advice and then buy online anyways. I wouldn't, but...
 

When I worked in a cycle shop we genuinely had a lady come in and ask to try on some shoes "because she'd found them cheap online and wanted to know what size to order!"

My boss didn't suffer fools well and politely told her to do one!!

I used to play ice hockey, and obviously not that many shops for that sort of thing in the UK, So one inparticualar started to refuse to let people try on stuff as they would go online and order. However equipment is something you definately try on, I asked once to just look at some gloves and they said ok then brought out a junior size one.

I understand their viewpoint but they did rip all of us for years before the internet came along. There was only one place in London at the time to get stuff so they'd rip you off massively. Fortuantely I have half my family in Canada who'd send/bring stuff over for me.

As a retailer i fell its my obligation to say we weren't (necessarily) being ripped off, RRP in most cases is based on double cost. Most internet companies are working on +10% and high street shops cant afford to pay the bills on that kind of margin!

scrumhalf

I've seen data about how much the instrument market is worth, but is there anything on how much the secondhand market is worth?

guitars4you

impmann said:

Paul7926 said:

In the case of guitar shops they will only exist on the back of in house experts for set-ups, custom work and amp repairs and small second hand selections of higher priced instruments/amps/pedals.  

Interestingly, though... most amp repair engineers are a similar age and are getting close to retirement. What happens then? And to be honest the costs of running a repair shop out the back of a high street shop are expensive. Very expensive compared to a small industrial unit or a domestic garage...

Plus... secondhand. Its not selling. None of it is. Its a dead market and everyone buying seems to think they can get it cheaper elsewhere and everyone selling seems to think that something is 'vintage' if its more than 15 years old and therefore prices it accordingly... to use an industry term "the channel is full". There is now more equipment available for sale than could possibly all find homes - hence "mega blow outs" of bad selling new stock (such as that EHX Overdrive pedal that nobody bought at full price - and now just £34 delivered) and then that affects the ability to sell secondhand stuff. Why would you buy a secondhand pedal for £40 that sounds incredibly similar to one thats £34 new...? And there are HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of secondhand overdrive pedals for sale today.

Knowing what I know from the inside of the industry, I imagine that Hans Thomann has bought a lot of those Gretsch guitars for below cost price as a blow out from Fender (who own/distribute Gretsch). The margins on anything from Fender are tight at best, so I'm guessing that this guitar is end of life - that means they won't be making any more, not that its dead - and so they have blown them out to a big store to free up some funds/warehouse space ahead of the run up to NAMM in January. If so, its got very little to do with the death of the High Street but more to do with how much product is in the market, and how few people are buying it. 

You are pretty close to a number of big issues here - There are other factors and it is not an easy answer, certainly to resolve in a few words on a guitar forum - But some key points here

prowla

ICBM said:

Haych said:

Jalapeno said:

High St business rates are the crippler compared with those for a shed in a field.

This ^!

I don't know what the solution is but the high street cannot compete on price alone.

The solution is political, and is to reverse the business rates regime so that out-of-town is more expensive per unit area than High Street. Will it happen? I have no idea - probably not as it would be unpopular if people find they can no longer drive to a retail park and buy their cheap consumer products. But it very much should, since the whole point of city business rates being higher in the first place was to reflect the greater profitability and hence desirability to businesses of being in the city.

Really all that would happen is the people who have been driven out of towns would be taxed higher too, prices would go up, and nobody would benefit.