And we wonder why the high street is going down the tubes...

sev112

gavin_axecaster said:

darthed1981 said:

sev112 said:

For example, we could stop people from speeding and killing innocent people by banning driving above 10mph,  but we don’t because it would have a huge impact on society, but we would eliminate needless fatalities. 

That's a bit of a straw man, we stop people from speeding by banning... speeding, its illegal and if you do it enough or excessively and you lose your license.

The idea of the distance selling regulations, ironically, was to allow people the same rights they have with an online retailer they have with a local shop, as you can't try before you buy online. 

Equally ironically, it puts huge extra costs on online retailers, and this thread was originally about how unfair it was for the high street having to compete with them, I think...

So we have come full circle!

Actually it is not so home customers can "try before you buy" it's so they can inspect the product, same as in a shop. Signs of use are grounds for withholding a portion of the refund if returned for change of mind under distance selling.

Changing the distance selling regs wouldn't create a level playing field - larger companies will still offer more generous returns policies that smaller businesses can't afford to match. Many (large/chain) bricks and mortar businesses offer generous change of mind returns policies, even though they are not legally obliged to.

Rent, business rates and the proliferation of online shopping is the cause of the high street malaise. Frankly I'm amazed that my local high street still has 3 greengrocers within 50 yards of each other. The only local music shop closed a few years ago after 30+ years trading after trying to survive by downsizing to half the floorspace to no avail. The last ironmongers closed after 50+ years in the same location about 3 years ago. For the most part the spaces are not being filled by retail, it's offices or cafés taking their place.

But retailers are saying that DSRs cost them money.  In which case the big sellers could continue use to offer if it they wish to take on those costs, but not all retailers have to trade under that burden.
it still seems odd to me that you get to to more under DSR (I.e keep it, try it out for 14 days and then decide you don’t want it and send it back at the retailers’ cost) when you don’t get that from the high street.

gavin_axecaster

sev112 said:

But retailers are saying that DSRs cost them money.  In which case the big sellers could continue use to offer if it they wish to take on those costs, but not all retailers have to trade under that burden.
it still seems odd to me that you get to to more under DSR (I.e keep it, try it out for 14 days and then decide you don’t want it and send it back at the retailers’ cost) when you don’t get that from the high street.

You don't get to "try it out". That was my point above. You don't get to try out a frying pan in a store, so you don't get to try it out at home either. (While this thread is about guitar stores and you can try out lots of things in a store, that isn't the case for the majority of products purchased in-store apart from clothes).

You have 14 days to inspect the product. You are not supposed to use it and if there are signs of use upon return the retailer can withhold a percentage of the refund or even refuse to accept the return.

Many people either don't understand this or deliberately abuse the regulations.

*The only change I would like to see to distance selling regs is having to refund the original base shipping costs. When you buy something from a store they don't refund your bus fare/parking fee when you pay. Forcing online sellers to refund the shipping on a change of mind return is not a level playing field.

(*Although 14 days is excessive imo. Reducing it to 7 days would be fair - it's only notifying the retailer you wish to return it that has to be done within this timeframe. Still plenty of time to inspect your purchase and decide if you are going to keep it)

scrumhalf

Voxman said:

It's more than a shame, it's tragic. I've just dropped my Laney Cub 12R into Richard Hill of Electrohill in Palmers Green - lovely, quiet unassuming guy I've known for donkeys years.  Chatted, caught-up asking how he is (he's well & looks fantastic for his age by the way!) and how business is going....he reiterated that business is dead, and that all retail has been or is being killed by the internet.  Stores just can't compete with the prices, the internet offers, 60 day no quibble returns, 3 years warranties etc etc.  Interestingly (and no names) there are some big outlets (even with big internet business) that are still losing money hand over fist at £1m a year.  

Like most folk here I'm a culprit too - I don't buy new guitars, but when I buy strings, leads, capods, guitar stands, straps and small stuff eg fx pedals, it's via the internet - aside from cost, it's just so goddamned convenient.  But the big downside is that the internet can't fix your amp or set up your guitar or give you a face-2-face personal service.  I understand how the world is now, obviously - but like many folk here who've been playing 40-50 years or more, its just a very, very sad state of affairs - not all progress is all good!   

  

The old Electrohill shop was lethal, I never came out of it without having hammered my credit card. I can't say the same about the new one, and it took me a while to find it.

darthed1981

gavin_axecaster said:

darthed1981 said:

sev112 said:

For example, we could stop people from speeding and killing innocent people by banning driving above 10mph,  but we don’t because it would have a huge impact on society, but we would eliminate needless fatalities. 

That's a bit of a straw man, we stop people from speeding by banning... speeding, its illegal and if you do it enough or excessively and you lose your license.

The idea of the distance selling regulations, ironically, was to allow people the same rights they have with an online retailer they have with a local shop, as you can't try before you buy online. 

Equally ironically, it puts huge extra costs on online retailers, and this thread was originally about how unfair it was for the high street having to compete with them, I think...

So we have come full circle!

Actually it is not so home customers can "try before you buy" it's so they can inspect the product, same as in a shop. Signs of use are grounds for withholding a portion of the refund if returned for change of mind under distance selling.

Changing the distance selling regs wouldn't create a level playing field - larger companies will still offer more generous returns policies that smaller businesses can't afford to match. Many (large/chain) bricks and mortar businesses offer generous change of mind returns policies, even though they are not legally obliged to.

Rent, business rates and the proliferation of online shopping is the cause of the high street malaise. Frankly I'm amazed that my local high street still has 3 greengrocers within 50 yards of each other. The only local music shop closed a few years ago after 30+ years trading after trying to survive by downsizing to half the floorspace to no avail. The last ironmongers closed after 50+ years in the same location about 3 years ago. For the most part the spaces are not being filled by retail, it's offices or cafés taking their place.

"inspect before you buy" then - though in a guitar shop that would include playing the sodding thing I'd hope, as would "inspecting" a guitar at home.

Obviously the intention wouldn't be "gig the fucker, and smack some rowdy punter with it", which would be the actual equivalent of doing your fry up, burning half an egg to it and sending it back to John Lewis wrapped in parcel tape.

I agree the regulations are misunderstood but my point was that the extra costs of dealing with that are partially supposed to be similar to the costs of a small shop providing the exact same service.

I think the end of retail is tragic, but I suspect the DSR typically helps rather than hinders high street stores, which were the topic of the thread after all.

Voxman

scrumhalf said:

Voxman said:

It's more than a shame, it's tragic. I've just dropped my Laney Cub 12R into Richard Hill of Electrohill in Palmers Green - lovely, quiet unassuming guy I've known for donkeys years.  Chatted, caught-up asking how he is (he's well & looks fantastic for his age by the way!) and how business is going....he reiterated that business is dead, and that all retail has been or is being killed by the internet.  Stores just can't compete with the prices, the internet offers, 60 day no quibble returns, 3 years warranties etc etc.  Interestingly (and no names) there are some big outlets (even with big internet business) that are still losing money hand over fist at £1m a year.  

Like most folk here I'm a culprit too - I don't buy new guitars, but when I buy strings, leads, capods, guitar stands, straps and small stuff eg fx pedals, it's via the internet - aside from cost, it's just so goddamned convenient.  But the big downside is that the internet can't fix your amp or set up your guitar or give you a face-2-face personal service.  I understand how the world is now, obviously - but like many folk here who've been playing 40-50 years or more, its just a very, very sad state of affairs - not all progress is all good!   

  

The old Electrohill shop was lethal, I never came out of it without having hammered my credit card. I can't say the same about the new one, and it took me a while to find it.

Electrohill moved because of rental costs. It was a double shop and reduced to single to try and stay put. But oo many kids were trying gear but not buying, so the move to it's current location was to cut rent and focus service on more serious players and more profitable loyal customers who made bigger purchases. It worked for a while but the retail business model ultimately couldn't keep pace with the speed and aggression of internet marketing and internet market growth. 

professorben

Voxman said:

It's more than a shame, it's tragic. I've just dropped my Laney Cub 12R into Richard Hill of Electrohill in Palmers Green - lovely, quiet unassuming guy I've known for donkeys years.  Chatted, caught-up asking how he is (he's well & looks fantastic for his age by the way!) and how business is going....he reiterated that business is dead, and that all retail has been or is being killed by the internet.  Stores just can't compete with the prices, the internet offers, 60 day no quibble returns, 3 years warranties etc etc.  Interestingly (and no names) there are some big outlets (even with big internet business) that are still losing money hand over fist at £1m a year.  

Like most folk here I'm a culprit too - I don't buy new guitars, but when I buy strings, leads, capods, guitar stands, straps and small stuff eg fx pedals, it's via the internet - aside from cost, it's just so goddamned convenient.  But the big downside is that the internet can't fix your amp or set up your guitar or give you a face-2-face personal service.  I understand how the world is now, obviously - but like many folk here who've been playing 40-50 years or more, its just a very, very sad state of affairs - not all progress is all good!   

  

Depends how you look at it. 

The bread and butter of music shops is the beginner, these are buy and large younger players, so the first port of call is the Internet for demos, reviews...oh look! A handy link to a preferred retailer with next day shipping, bonus. 

What do music shops actually offer to the beginner? 

Advice: Is anyone under the impression that people who work in music shops are any better qualified to advise than internet reviewers? 

Try before you buy: not much benefit if you can’t play much yet (which leads me to)

Atmosphere: How incredibly intimidating are music shops? 

If the staff don’t blow you away with their chops the gaggle off ‘muso’s’ propping Uk the counter are off putting enough, compared to a chance to inspect something in the relative security of your own home. 

The only reason music shops prospered as they did years ago was because there was no other options. 

Now I know a lot of shops are great, but the game has changed. 

Either learn to play the game as it is now or go under. 

Whitecat

gavin_axecaster said:

sev112 said:

But retailers are saying that DSRs cost them money.  In which case the big sellers could continue use to offer if it they wish to take on those costs, but not all retailers have to trade under that burden.
it still seems odd to me that you get to to more under DSR (I.e keep it, try it out for 14 days and then decide you don’t want it and send it back at the retailers’ cost) when you don’t get that from the high street.

You don't get to "try it out". That was my point above. You don't get to try out a frying pan in a store, so you don't get to try it out at home either. (While this thread is about guitar stores and you can try out lots of things in a store, that isn't the case for the majority of products purchased in-store apart from clothes).

You have 14 days to inspect the product. You are not supposed to use it and if there are signs of use upon return the retailer can withhold a percentage of the refund or even refuse to accept the return.

Many people either don't understand this or deliberately abuse the regulations.

*The only change I would like to see to distance selling regs is having to refund the original base shipping costs. When you buy something from a store they don't refund your bus fare/parking fee when you pay. Forcing online sellers to refund the shipping on a change of mind return is not a level playing field.

(*Although 14 days is excessive imo. Reducing it to 7 days would be fair - it's only notifying the retailer you wish to return it that has to be done within this timeframe. Still plenty of time to inspect your purchase and decide if you are going to keep it)

Not sure this is 100% correct. With the revision in the law a few years ago I believe that the way the legislation is written you are allowed to do whatever you would reasonably be allowed to do in a physical shop with most things that you have ordered. So you’re right in that trying a frying pan wouldn’t be cool,  but trying a guitar probably would be ok because it’s the done thing in a music shop. 

crunchman

darthed1981 said:

gavin_axecaster said:

darthed1981 said:

sev112 said:

For example, we could stop people from speeding and killing innocent people by banning driving above 10mph,  but we don’t because it would have a huge impact on society, but we would eliminate needless fatalities. 

That's a bit of a straw man, we stop people from speeding by banning... speeding, its illegal and if you do it enough or excessively and you lose your license.

The idea of the distance selling regulations, ironically, was to allow people the same rights they have with an online retailer they have with a local shop, as you can't try before you buy online. 

Equally ironically, it puts huge extra costs on online retailers, and this thread was originally about how unfair it was for the high street having to compete with them, I think...

So we have come full circle!

Actually it is not so home customers can "try before you buy" it's so they can inspect the product, same as in a shop. Signs of use are grounds for withholding a portion of the refund if returned for change of mind under distance selling.

Changing the distance selling regs wouldn't create a level playing field - larger companies will still offer more generous returns policies that smaller businesses can't afford to match. Many (large/chain) bricks and mortar businesses offer generous change of mind returns policies, even though they are not legally obliged to.

Rent, business rates and the proliferation of online shopping is the cause of the high street malaise. Frankly I'm amazed that my local high street still has 3 greengrocers within 50 yards of each other. The only local music shop closed a few years ago after 30+ years trading after trying to survive by downsizing to half the floorspace to no avail. The last ironmongers closed after 50+ years in the same location about 3 years ago. For the most part the spaces are not being filled by retail, it's offices or cafés taking their place.

"inspect before you buy" then - though in a guitar shop that would include playing the sodding thing I'd hope, as would "inspecting" a guitar at home.

Obviously the intention wouldn't be "gig the fucker, and smack some rowdy punter with it", which would be the actual equivalent of doing your fry up, burning half an egg to it and sending it back to John Lewis wrapped in parcel tape.

I agree the regulations are misunderstood but my point was that the extra costs of dealing with that are partially supposed to be similar to the costs of a small shop providing the exact same service.

I think the end of retail is tragic, but I suspect the DSR typically helps rather than hinders high street stores, which were the topic of the thread after all.

Not sure it does.

There have been loads of threads on here where there has been the argument about trying before buying, and the proponents of the box shifters have said that you can send it back under DSRs.  I bet the 90% of those people would not be happy to drop a large amount of money on a guitar if they didn't have the option of sending it back.  They would be back in a shop the old fashioned way.

Likewise for clothes shopping, if you couldn't send it back, you would be going into a physical shop to try it on first.

sev112

 But so many retailers in here say, they get back damaged goods which have been more than inspected, and which they cannot resell at full price. So it doesn’t matter what the legislation is “intended” to do / be, it is clearly impacting the smaller retailers. 

ToneControl

impmann said:

Universal8 said:

Sassafras said:

I like to try instruments before I buy them.
I can't be arsed to use the box-shifters like a library.
And music shops aren't unpleasant environments.

I agree but I won’t pay way over the top for the privilege.

"Over the top"

Or do you mean

"More than I can get it for elsewhere" - and there's a massive difference between those two sentences.

Everyone likes a bargain, but there is a degree of something for nothing here. And yes, its whats killing the high street. 

If you are happy to buy a box from a warehouse, carry on. But when (not if) it goes wrong, its a world of pain to put it right.

tbh, Thoman bent over backwards on several occasions to sort out faults I had on new guitars, even making a new bridge from scratch for a resonator, with 5 extra shipment charges including previous replacement attempts when the second batch they got from China was not good enough, even though it was only £120 or £150

ToneControl

Sassafras said:

I just find it sad in general that all the independent shops are being forced out by the mega corporations, where's the variety. Do we really want High Streets that look identical no matter where you are. Characterless clones of each other?

What mega-corporations? Dawsons are in trouble, and Thomann is a family business

OilCityPickups

Brize said:

OilCityPickups said:

Personally I'm heartily sick of DSR returned pickups that have scratched covers, leads cut to a couple of inches, burred pole screw heads and destroyed boxes. Yes, I should refuse to reimburse for damaged returns, but if the item was bought with PayPal the most common thing is for someone to open a case against you if you don't roll over. It's been my experience that retailers NEVER win against customers in PayPal disputes, so we bite the bullet and refund cost and postage, ending up selling the serviced and repaired pickups at 'knock down' to cover at least some of our costs.  

That's unbelievable. I always thought that pickup manufacturers would get practically no returns because, once the pickups had been fitted and the wires cut, no reasonable person would expect their right of return not to be invalidated.

When you see my 'Boo Boo' pickups advertised in the classifieds they often come this route. And there are a great many unreasonable people out there who will do a PAYPal dispute, credit card chargeback, or phone you every day and threaten ... 

WiresDreamDisasters

Let's not forget someone from this forum calling up and giving a mouthful to Peach Guitars, causing them to leave the forum.

impmann

Back in the days of MR, there was someone who bragged that they'd order a guitar from Thomann, gig it at the weekend and then send it back. When it was pointed out he was being a bit of a twat he started bleating about it being his "right".

I don't agree that we can't kill DSR off. I don't agree that it gives the consumer the same rights as in store - because if someone took the piss back in the day, you told them to piss off. Good customer service doesn't mean you have to be subservient to wankers...

darthed1981

impmann said:

Back in the days of MR, there was someone who bragged that they'd order a guitar from Thomann, gig it at the weekend and then send it back. When it was pointed out he was being a bit of a twat he started bleating about it being his "right".

I don't agree that we can't kill DSR off. I don't agree that it gives the consumer the same rights as in store - because if someone took the piss back in the day, you told them to piss off. Good customer service doesn't mean you have to be subservient to wankers...

Yeah thats a fair point, but we also don't want to penalise honest punters because of the Twats either.

Worth debating, as presumably the DSR will be part of the many, many bits of Euro legislation up for review post-Brexit.

bgmartinsbridge

I think retail is currently at cake and eat it...!

Amazon and other pureplay retailers basically have lived off the fact people view elsewhere and then buy direct as they can sell cheaper due to lower overheads through tax and infrastructure. And consumers are happy to let them.

Its a bit like the supermarkets - we went from small shops to supermarkets due to lower prices, then when the little guys had gone the supermarkets put their prices up. Now Lidl and Aldi have changed the market again.

The challenge is what happens when Amazon and pure play have killed off all the high street retailers? But then that's the next phase of Amazon - open physical shops to let you buy the stuff (so similar to what the supermarkets did, by removing competition).

professorben

bgmartinsbridge said:

I think retail is currently at cake and eat it...!

Amazon and other pureplay retailers basically have lived off the fact people view elsewhere and then buy direct as they can sell cheaper due to lower overheads through tax and infrastructure. And consumers are happy to let them.

Its a bit like the supermarkets - we went from small shops to supermarkets due to lower prices, then when the little guys had gone the supermarkets put their prices up. Now Lidl and Aldi have changed the market again.

The challenge is what happens when Amazon and pure play have killed off all the high street retailers? But then that's the next phase of Amazon - open physical shops to let you buy the stuff (so similar to what the supermarkets did, by removing competition).

I agree with this to a certain extent. 

The concept of big retailers opening’ showrooms’ absolutely I can see. 

Retail only changed because customers make it change. 

If shops could carry on selling at rrp employing trained and dedicated staff on good money they would, but we don’t want that, we want fast cheap goods with the best possible range of choice. 

impmann

professorben said:

 

If shops could carry on selling at rrp employing trained and dedicated staff on good money they would, but we don’t want that, we want fast cheap goods with the best possible range of choice. 

Speak for yourself.

Personally, I want high quality goods at a fair price. I don't mind saving up for good stuff, as long as I'm not having to replace it due to shit quality or obsolescence. I'm not fussed about "fast" - the world is too fast, I don't need to encourage it. Best possible range of choice - to quote Roger Waters "I've got 13 channels of shit on my TV to choose from" but rarely watch any of it because the quality has been spread so thin due to "choice". Its the same in a Music shop - do we really need 100s of Overdrive pedals that all sound roughly the same as a Tubescreamer? No... we don't. And on some of those booteek things, they give you so many controls to tweek to 'really dial it in'... choice again... but ultimately, most people find a sound they like and leave those knobs alone.

And I'm forever sick of reading about how person 'x' managed to squeeze retailer 'a' down to a great price and then whine like bitches when they can't send it back for a full refund because it went wrong after they changed the valves to NOS Mullards/the LED colour wasn't right/the manual said it would provide 100watts and it only produced 93/ it didn't make their cock look bigger/their missus didn't like being banged on it... etc etc. Or those tales of woe of folks who buy stuff cheap, find something wrong and then have problems with the aftersales... you can't have your cake and eat it. Its cheap for a reason - and just for clarity for people "B stock" means it won't be cosmetically perfect and in some cases, far from it because of DSR and the wankers I mentioned earlier. Want perfect, don't buy B stock... its cheap for a reason.

Actually, was it better before all this on line stuff? Actually, in some ways... yes. I've started going back to shops as the on line experience sucks ass - and do I mind paying a bit more for it? Not really - as long as I feel that the price *I* have paid is appropriate for what I'm buying, I don't give a flying fart what anyone else thinks of that price/purchase because I'm not buying stuff to sell... and get back all my "investment". 

bgmartinsbridge

I think we need to be careful of the word cheaper - change it to a lower price and it has more meaning. 

A bricks and mortar shop on the UK needs to charge way more than a pure play internet retailer operating out of luxenburg for tax purposes. 

However, we've been given more choice and more importantly visibility of price differences - which we didn't have before.

The problem is for how long. 

Yes, we will have visibility of these lower prices online but when the competition disappears and we no longer have anywhere to view the products then what will the manufacturers and distributors do? 


I'd rather, most if the time, pay extra for the service and to see it in person. But when the delta is maybe 10-20% or even more, the majority of the public will go for lower prices to save money. Hence why retail is where it is. 

Obviously it varies by product and I do feel that mid range and upward guitars should be different but then not for everyone. 

professorben

impmann said:

professorben said:

 

If shops could carry on selling at rrp employing trained and dedicated staff on good money they would, but we don’t want that, we want fast cheap goods with the best possible range of choice. 

Speak for yourself.

Personally, I want high quality goods at a fair price. I don't mind saving up for good stuff, as long as I'm not having to replace it due to shit quality or obsolescence. I'm not fussed about "fast" - the world is too fast, I don't need to encourage it. Best possible range of choice - to quote Roger Waters "I've got 13 channels of shit on my TV to choose from" but rarely watch any of it because the quality has been spread so thin due to "choice". Its the same in a Music shop - do we really need 100s of Overdrive pedals that all sound roughly the same as a Tubescreamer? No... we don't. And on some of those booteek things, they give you so many controls to tweek to 'really dial it in'... choice again... but ultimately, most people find a sound they like and leave those knobs alone.

And I'm forever sick of reading about how person 'x' managed to squeeze retailer 'a' down to a great price and then whine like bitches when they can't send it back for a full refund because it went wrong after they changed the valves to NOS Mullards/the LED colour wasn't right/the manual said it would provide 100watts and it only produced 93/ it didn't make their cock look bigger/their missus didn't like being banged on it... etc etc. Or those tales of woe of folks who buy stuff cheap, find something wrong and then have problems with the aftersales... you can't have your cake and eat it. Its cheap for a reason - and just for clarity for people "B stock" means it won't be cosmetically perfect and in some cases, far from it because of DSR and the wankers I mentioned earlier. Want perfect, don't buy B stock... its cheap for a reason.

Actually, was it better before all this on line stuff? Actually, in some ways... yes. I've started going back to shops as the on line experience sucks ass - and do I mind paying a bit more for it? Not really - as long as I feel that the price *I* have paid is appropriate for what I'm buying, I don't give a flying fart what anyone else thinks of that price/purchase because I'm not buying stuff to sell... and get back all my "investment". 

Of course I’m generalising. 

But I’m afraid you are very much in the minority.