And we wonder why the high street is going down the tubes...

steveledzep

Does anyone else remember what I consider to be the forerunner of the internet competing with shops ?  In my youth (about 50 years ago) I bought a Zenta electric bass from a company called Bells (Bell's ?).  They advertised in NME and Sounds and you sent off for a catalogue, quite a large A4 size catalogue printed in black and white if I remember.  The guitarist in our band got a Columbus 335 alike from them and with my Zenta formed the basis for our teen band.  What happened to Bells, anyone know ?

guitars4you

thebreeze said:

Thanks @guitars4you - I think we're so lucky to have you on here and to get the benefit of your perspective and experience.

Thanks - But I enjoy reading such postings to see the view points of you guys - Even if it is split opinion etc - Nice to see what you guys like or moan about in such instances - Both sides of a discussion have their learning points as far as I'm concerned

guitars4you

steveledzep said:

Does anyone else remember what I consider to be the forerunner of the internet competing with shops ?  In my youth (about 50 years ago) I bought a Zenta electric bass from a company called Bells (Bell's ?).  They advertised in NME and Sounds and you sent off for a catalogue, quite a large A4 size catalogue printed in black and white if I remember.  The guitarist in our band got a Columbus 335 alike from them and with my Zenta formed the basis for our teen band.  What happened to Bells, anyone know ?

I think I still have a couple of Bells catalogues about somewhere - They had their own shop as well in Surbiton - Originally it started of as a piano accordion shop - Pre war and such a shop would sell more piano accordions than guitars

If I get 5 mins spare tonight I'm going to track down some of their history as I can't recall to much

Neil

steveledzep said:

Does anyone else remember what I consider to be the forerunner of the internet competing with shops ?  In my youth (about 50 years ago) I bought a Zenta electric bass from a company called Bells (Bell's ?).  They advertised in NME and Sounds and you sent off for a catalogue, quite a large A4 size catalogue printed in black and white if I remember.  The guitarist in our band got a Columbus 335 alike from them and with my Zenta formed the basis for our teen band.  What happened to Bells, anyone know ?

Ordered the catalogue in the '60's as a kid from an ad in a Sunday paper (couldn't afford anything) and visited the Surbiton shop later on.

Apparently Clapton, Townsend etc used to gather there back in the day.

All gone now but I bet they sold a lot of guitar stuff through those catalogues, had tempting HP forms in there too. 

LastMantra

It's "valves". 

FelineGuitars

guitars4you said:

steveledzep said:

Does anyone else remember what I consider to be the forerunner of the internet competing with shops ?  In my youth (about 50 years ago) I bought a Zenta electric bass from a company called Bells (Bell's ?).  They advertised in NME and Sounds and you sent off for a catalogue, quite a large A4 size catalogue printed in black and white if I remember.  The guitarist in our band got a Columbus 335 alike from them and with my Zenta formed the basis for our teen band.  What happened to Bells, anyone know ?

I think I still have a couple of Bells catalogues about somewhere - They had their own shop as well in Surbiton - Originally it started of as a piano accordion shop - Pre war and such a shop would sell more piano accordions than guitars

If I get 5 mins spare tonight I'm going to track down some of their history as I can't recall to much

The Bell Music store in Surbiton was where my workshop first had a home (away from my mum's garage), although it wasn't called Bell Music by then.

At one time they were so big that they had shops on both sides of the Ewell Road - the one where my workshop was had had all the accordions and keyboards etc and the shop across the road shop had specialised in guitars

Bell  had some very good times but I guess things changed and their fortunes  did too.

They ended up selling off the smaller shop and it became a restaurant called the Liberty Bell back in mid 90s (now Langleys)

They had sold the Store to Hohner UK (now Sutherland Trading) who I think they owed a LOT of money to - possibly for all the Hohner accordions and stuff that they had had over the years.

Hohner ran it (badly) as a showroom for their own lines, but it kind of needed to also stock more of other popular brands to get local musicians in to use it more . It did have a killer selection of Sonor Drums though.

In the end the building got sold to property developers to build some posh flats over/behind a smaller shop and I vacated and moved back to Croydon (this was 1999 - - so 20 years ago). 

Think the shop has been everything from a golf shop to a shoe shop to a furnishings store in recent years.

guitars4you

FelineGuitars said:

guitars4you said:

steveledzep said:

Does anyone else remember what I consider to be the forerunner of the internet competing with shops ?  In my youth (about 50 years ago) I bought a Zenta electric bass from a company called Bells (Bell's ?).  They advertised in NME and Sounds and you sent off for a catalogue, quite a large A4 size catalogue printed in black and white if I remember.  The guitarist in our band got a Columbus 335 alike from them and with my Zenta formed the basis for our teen band.  What happened to Bells, anyone know ?

I think I still have a couple of Bells catalogues about somewhere - They had their own shop as well in Surbiton - Originally it started of as a piano accordion shop - Pre war and such a shop would sell more piano accordions than guitars

If I get 5 mins spare tonight I'm going to track down some of their history as I can't recall to much

The Bell Music store in Surbiton was where my workshop first had a home (away from my mum's garage), although it wasn't called Bell Music by then.

At one time they were so big that they had shops on both sides of the Ewell Road - the one where my workshop was had had all the accordions and keyboards etc and the shop across the road shop had specialised in guitars

Bell  had some very good times but I guess things changed and their fortunes  did too.

They ended up selling off the smaller shop and it became a restaurant called the Liberty Bell back in mid 90s (now Langleys)

They had sold the Store to Hohner UK (now Sutherland Trading) who I think they owed a LOT of money to - possibly for all the Hohner accordions and stuff that they had had over the years.

Hohner ran it (badly) as a showroom for their own lines, but it kind of needed to also stock more of other popular brands to get local musicians in to use it more . It did have a killer selection of Sonor Drums though.

In the end the building got sold to property developers to build some posh flats over/behind a smaller shop and I vacated and moved back to Croydon (this was 1999 - - so 20 years ago). 

Think the shop has been everything from a golf shop to a shoe shop to a furnishings store in recent years.

Thanks for that update Jon - It appears as though the Bells Catalogue format finished in 1983 or thereabouts - Another trade source suggested a similar comment about 'potential' accordion debt with Hohner - Ties in with the Sonor drums as for a number of years, Sonor Drums were sold into the UK via M Hohner distributors

My granddad ran a music store for a number of years in Derby - He tells stories in the 40's and 50's of Hohner sending 10-20 accordions on the train to Derby station (Red Star Parcels or similar name ????)  - My granddad would pick them up and take them to the shop - A week later he would have sold out and as such the system was repeated on a weekly basis - Shows how trends have changed from those days 

Jalapeno

Yes, British Rail parcel service was called Red Star. It was pretty good if you lived near a mainline station. 

In my first job, if we missed the Securicor pickup late afternoon one of us would have to drive to Watford Junction, or worse if really late Euston Red Star depots for overnight delivery.  Was significantly better than the Post Office parcel service.

guitars4you

Jalapeno said:

Yes, British Rail parcel service was called Red Star. It was pretty good if you lived near a mainline station. 

In my first job, if we missed the Securicor pickup late afternoon one of us would have to drive to Watford Junction, or worse if really late Euston Red Star depots for overnight delivery.  Was significantly better than the Post Office parcel service.

We are going down memory lane now aren't we with Red Star - Just seen it stopped in 1999

I recall my granddad just wrapped the parcel in 'paper' and string with various fancy knots - No brown vinyl packing tape

YorkieBarre

I just bought a Fujigen guitar from a high street shop, just not a particularly local one as its got a bit weird near me. 

I live near to Gear4Music main premises on an industrial estate in York, but their service is patchy to say the least, a few superstars who were trained in local shops and a number of people who seem to regard customers as an inconvenience. My local high street guitar shop in the city centre no longer has a single new guitar in the premises, just a few second hand ones. They’re doing the bulk of their trade online and if I wanted to try a guitar I had to buy it, they’d order it in for me to try after I’d paid, which felt just plain wrong to me. 

So I went to a proper high street guitar shop a 45 minute drive away in Pontefract (Jow music) and sat there quaffing tea, chin-wagging with the owners and punters and playing various guitars out on my own amp which I’d taken with me. I bought then and there because I found one I really liked. The price was the same as on eBay which was a bonus, but if it had been more I’d still have bought the guitar I’d tried out for an hour rather than risking one I didn’t get on with for less money. 

I much prefer real shops with real stock and real people. I don’t like the focus on big business and online as its killing many local communities, not just here, but in every country that I’ve been to in the last few years. High street business rates may be a huge problem, but many folk have to work such stupid hours these days that they only have time to shop online for most things or they wouldn’t get to spend time with family and friends, online is so much easier and quicker for them and online is basically a gigantic price comparison site fuelling this behaviour. I may be rather neanderthal in my thinking, but give me a real, local business every day. I’m very fortunate however that I can afford the time and money to shop on the high street and use local businesses for most things and not everyone is as fortunate. Rant over....sorry, hope you’ll excuse the frustration.

steveledzep

Interesting replies about Bells, thank you gents.
In the mid 70s I worked for TNT Parcels and Red Star were a competitor.  Its drawback was you had to take your parcel to the station and the recipient had to collect at the other end.
Then someone had the bright idea of putting a fleet of delivery/collection vehicles at the stations.  They were called "City Link" and used the railway network as their trunking system...it worked very well.

jeztone2

I find this interesting.

I was in Leipzig two weeks ago. Next to my hotel was a small mom and pop guitar store and it was really busy. Yet Germany is the home of Thomann? 

Then I walked around Leipzig City centre and saw hardly any homeless people and one empty shop front. The department stores were doing a roaring trade.

I’m starting to think the Mary Portas excuse for the high street is bullshit. I just think incomes have been squeezed since 2008, and it’s created this race to the bottom on price. It’s worrying. 

GoldenEraGuitars

Jalapeno said:

Didn't we just do this debate 2-3 weeks ago ?

When I want a box, I choose a box shifter. 

When I want service, and/or an expensive guitar I choose a proper retailer and I'm happy to pay for the privelege - but there aren't that many around these days (Phil's Vintage & modern (20 mins away), World Guitars  (a day out), Coda (30 mins), or Peach (also a day out) - also a shout out to Guitar Village (2hrs away), RIP Ivor Mairants too)

High St business rates are the crippler compared with those for a shed in a field.

Yes, we did. The vibe here seems to be of self entitlement.... the words “ripped off” are losing all meaning at this stage. 

Just because a box shifter is happy to make A LOT less on an item doesn’t mean the high street shipping is ripping anyone off. 

downbytheriver

I don’t think for a minute that the high street stores are ripping people off - I understand the economics of the retail trade. I just think it’s a shame that they have no real defence against the box shifter as long as 

1. It’s illegal to control retail prices (this is market forces unrestrained) leading to... 

2. The majority of trade will go to the lowest price charged...

3. Rather than enhance choice this leads to fewer options to buy, reduced options to try, lower customer service 

Final food for thought- several times recently I have been to a shop (non musical retail but...) for something only to be told that they don’t have it in stock but I can buy it from them online. Congratulations - don’t they realise that I can buy it from ANYONE online and an establishment with bricks and mortar shops is not likely to be the cheapest? Every time they tell me this they are driving another nail into the coffin of their own job. 

My hobby used to be visiting music shops - this is destroying my lifestyle. 

professorben

zepp76 said:

downbytheriver said:

Gretsch G5655TG - really rather nice Jr sized Gretsch, centre block, black top Filtertrons, the one I was looking at is Snow Crest White with gold hardware - lovely. 

On the wall in my local shop at £819 (though oddly on their website at £779). 

I looked on on the web to gain a bit of traction for negotiation... 

various offerings (all reputable) from £799 down to £679. Already I’m thinking that I can’t ask for that price from my local... 

Thomann - £517 SHIPPED. 

I understand economies of scale and big orders attracting discounts but REALLY? Fender will have no shops to sell to at this rate. 

(My wife doesn’t like gold on white so I’m not shopping - but I would have gone Thomann - who wouldn’t?) 

I’m going to forget about the pricing situation for a moment and ask you a different question. You say the white guitar was lovely then go on
to say you’re not shopping for one because your wife doesn’t like the colour scheme, I’m single so am intrigued to know if this is how marriage really works? Your wife doesn’t like something you like so you can’t own it and play it? Kind of makes me happy to be single if that’s the case! 

Yes relationships work by taking into consideration the other persons thoughts feelings and opinions. 

professorben

Bear in mind that the two shops most likely were not paying the same price for the guitar. 

When I worked in a shop Fender had a pricing structure based on dealership level’s, Gold, Silver, Bronze etc. 

This dictates what you paid for the stock, so a Gold dealer bought the exact same guitar as I could, but at around 20% Cheaper, this is huge when you consider VAT and uplift. 

Add in the economies of scale RE: high volume low profit sales and it’s not hard to see why some shops can offer such vast discounts. 

I’ve mentioned it a few times but at one point it was cheaper for me to buy a Les Paul from Coda or Andertons at retail than it was to buy it from the Gibson distributor at trade price because of the rebates and discounts offered by the distributor. 

prowla

If a shop has what I want then I have the option of buying it; if they don’t, then I can’t. 

I often go to a shop and they advise me to look on the internet for what I want; I sometimes think they are missing the point!

EricTheWeary

jeztone2 said:

I find this interesting.

I was in Leipzig two weeks ago. Next to my hotel was a small mom and pop guitar store and it was really busy. Yet Germany is the home of Thomann? 

Then I walked around Leipzig City centre and saw hardly any homeless people and one empty shop front. The department stores were doing a roaring trade.

I’m starting to think the Mary Portas excuse for the high street is bullshit. I just think incomes have been squeezed since 2008, and it’s created this race to the bottom on price. It’s worrying. 

I don’t know about Leipzig but in much of Europe there hasn’t been the rise of large out of town shopping complexes  ( in the Netherlands the largest shop you’ll see not in a town/ city centre is Aldi), systems for buying online haven’t been developed as fast as in the U.K. ( click and collect supermarket shopping being a big new thing in France in the last couple of years for example whereas it’s been common here for years), the idea of a town/ city centre as a place to spend time in has been kept ( the rise of a cafe culture in the U.K. seen as a saviour of the high streets but it was always there across much of Europe) and wanting to live near the centre is a desirable thing. 

I don’t know it at all well but Brighton is often quoted as Britain’s European city because there is a cafe/ restaurant culture and people want to live near the centre. Once people live near the centre they buy stuff there rather than travel out which forms a baseline economy for the high street. In many British towns it’s a mark of how poor you are to live nearer to the centre. 

As they say we are all Thatcher’s children - we have developed an expectation of cheap prices and plentiful credit. It depends where you go but that’s not so much the case outside the U.K., there is still value attached to buying nice stuff rather than as much as possible of the cheapest stuff. 

prowla

I’ve been to Warwick dealers looking for a part “best order direct, mate”, a CIOKS dealer looking for a cable “we don’t keep them in the store but can get one from the warehouse”, looking for a patch lead with pancake jacks “What’s a pancake Jack?”, after a particular Markbass amp (nowhere stocked them so I bought online), etc. 

The message is don’t bother coming here unless you want a brand new Fender/whatever off the wall there, and we can’t be bothered with anything else. 

NelsonP

I'd always tried guitars extensively before buying them, until a couple of years ago.

I'd been after an Epiphone Gary Clary Jr Casino, which was quite hard to find. Then I saw one online, from a High St retailer in Sheffield, used but with a warranty. Since I'm nowhere near there I took a punt and distance ordered it from them - admittedly by phone, and after receiving reassurances that it was a trade in by a regular customer and that I could return it if I didn't like it. They were obviously a good shop, run by very decent people, so I was happy to give them my custom.

Since then I've bought two other guitars online - 1 brand new from a box shifter (at about 25% less than the high st price) and the other 2nd hand from eBay.

So on a sample of 1, life is getting a bit trickier for the high st retailer (although Andertons and Guitar Guitar have still had a few hundred quid from me this year for other stuff)