6 screw vs Twin Pivot Strat Tremolos - This 'Experiment' Makes No Sense To Me

ICBM

andy_k said:

There is a difference with the vintage 6,in that when it is set up correctly to 'float', the leading edge is fully in contact with the body.

Not true.

When set up correctly the bridge pivots on the screws only and does not touch the body. If it does, the pivot screws are set too low and the bridge will bind against the body and cause tuning problems.

Watch the video.

Also, there’s no point in raising the middle four screws, since it doesn’t reduce friction - it just moves the contact point down the screw shaft a bit. The best adjustment is with all six set so the heads don’t quite touch the plate.

guitars4you

ICBM said:

You're correct - complete bollocks in my opinion. He's comparing a partially-blocked bridge to a fully-floating one, not two posts to six screws.

In my opinion there is a small difference in pure tone between the two types of bridges when set up the same - quite subtle, and not at all the "two post bridges kill tone" myth that you will often hear...

There are sometimes differences in the bridge saddle and block materials, the posts are made from harder steel than the screws, and the posts are screwed into metal inserts not directly into the wood - these all do make some difference I think. If set floating, the two-post does warble more than the six-screw too, which has the effect of producing a subtle chorus-type effect even when you don't hear it clearly as pitch wobble.

But overall I think you'd be doing very well to be able to say which type of bridge a Strat has if you hear it, and probably even if you were playing it yourself, blindfolded.

interesting that if we take J Beck and Hank Marvin - 2 guys who use the trem a helluva  lot - Yet JB prefers the 2 point fulcrum and HM the vintage 6 screw version - Is it tone, feel, stability ? - I don't know - But 2 accomplished guitar hero's go about it in a different way and show that both can work - So just a case of which you prefer 

andy_k

ICBM said:

andy_k said:

There is a difference with the vintage 6,in that when it is set up correctly to 'float', the leading edge is fully in contact with the body.

Not true.

When set up correctly the bridge pivots on the screws only and does not touch the body. If it does, the pivot screws are set too low and the bridge will bind against the body and cause tuning problems.

Watch the video.

Also, there’s no point in raising the middle four screws, since it doesn’t reduce friction - it just moves the contact point down the screw shaft a bit. The best adjustment is with all six set so the heads don’t quite touch the plate.

I have just now watched the video, and I still stick to my claim, the bridge plate is held down by string pressure, opposed by spring tension, and is held in place by the screws. You can see the top edge of the plate moving down the screw as it pivots, rocking on the rounded front edge of the baseplate.
It does not appear to pivot on the screw, it rocks on the front of the bridge. I have never bothered to get this type of bridge to work reliably as a floating device, as there are too many binding points involved to get reliable stability in tuning, I have got lucky a few times, but I gave up trying to do it deliberately.
There are many steps to get it close, and if I was offering to do it as a service, the advice that I have seen showing the method to raise the inner 4 screws to eliminate friction to help stability, is the method I would use.
The Wudtone solution would be unnecessary if the tremolo unit operated as you suggest.

ICBM

andy_k said:

I have just now watched the video, and I still stick to my claim, the bridge plate is held down by string pressure, opposed by spring tension, and is held in place by the screws. You can see the top edge of the plate moving down the screw as it pivots, rocking on the rounded front edge of the baseplate.

It does not appear to pivot on the screw, it rocks on the front of the bridge. I have never bothered to get this type of bridge to work reliably as a floating device, as there are too many binding points involved to get reliable stability in tuning, I have got lucky a few times, but I gave up trying to do it deliberately.
There are many steps to get it close, and if I was offering to do it as a service, the advice that I have seen showing the method to raise the inner 4 screws to eliminate friction to help stability, is the method I would use.
The Wudtone solution would be unnecessary if the tremolo unit operated as you suggest.

Then watch this one...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2fmospyy7thwq6e/AriaBridge.mov?dl=0

Wudtone is wrong, and their 'solution' is indeed unnecessary. Their bridges are nicely made, but based on a misunderstanding of how the bridge pivots. It's quite clear in both videos that the bridge is not rocking on the body, there is a gap under it.

It's actually held tightly against the screws at right angles to them and parallel to the body, by the string and spring tension - there is no downward force, unless the screws are overtightened. There are no binding points at all if it's set correctly - the only contacts are the six points where the plate touches the screw shafts, and if the steel is hard it's almost frictionless... that's the genius of Leo Fender's design, it's incredibly simple but works perfectly if you understand how it works.

That's why you've never been able to get it to work reliably .

(For what it's worth I do do it as a service, and I can get it to work every time.)

andy_k

I think I understand what you are saying, but I don't think you are understanding what I am, let me try to get closer.
Where exactly does the bridge plate pivot?, is it on the top edge of the plate and the screw shaft?,
or is it on the curved bottom edge of the plate, and the friction of the plate sliding up and down the screw?
Do you think the tolerances of the six screws and the six holes allow them to be perfectly aligned?
I have had plenty of experience with them, and know how to set them up, but also realise the limitations.
If you set one of these up to float, with available upward movement, there are many things to consider-including the alignment of the stars.
Almost is good enough in this situation, as you can pull things back into tune, but it is not ideal-otherwise we would have never needed Floyd Rose, and Eddie wouldn't have needed to upgrade.
The Wudtone system fixes a lot of the issues.
It's not worth having a row about, I can see your point, to a certain extent, but you have to accept it is less than ideal, I think Fender saw it as well-hence the introduction of the 2 point system.

ICBM

andy_k said:

I think I understand what you are saying, but I don't think you are understanding what I am, let me try to get closer.

I do understand what you're saying, but - with respect - you're wrong. The bridge doesn't rock on the body, nor is it meant to, and if it does then that's because the pivot screws are too tight, and precisely when it causes trouble.

andy_k said:

Where exactly does the bridge plate pivot?, is it on the top edge of the plate and the screw shaft?,

Yes.

andy_k said:

or is it on the curved bottom edge of the plate, and the friction of the plate sliding up and down the screw?

No.

andy_k said:

Do you think the tolerances of the six screws and the six holes allow them to be perfectly aligned?

No, and that's actually part of Leo's brilliance - by mounting the screws directly into the wood, they can flex slightly and so find their own perfect alignment. They also tend to lean forward slightly, which makes the contact angle closer to a right angle when the bridge is floating.

And since they're made from a softer steel than the bridgeplate, they also - if left alone once adjusted correctly - usually develop tiny notches where the bridge presses against them which helps keep it in place.

andy_k said:

Almost is good enough in this situation, as you can pull things back into tune, but it is not ideal-otherwise we would have never needed Floyd Rose, and Eddie wouldn't have needed to upgrade.

The Floyd Rose actually addresses the main cause of tuning problems with any conventional vibrato, which is string movement at the nut - not the bridge pivots. The two-post pivot system is a less important change.

andy_k said:

It's not worth having a row about, I can see your point, to a certain extent, but you have to accept it is less than ideal, I think Fender saw it as well-hence the introduction of the 2 point system.

I'm not having a row. I'm simply trying to correct one of the biggest misunderstandings about guitars that there is, and which causes a lot of trouble for people who don't try to learn how it really works.

andy_k said:

I think Fender saw it as well-hence the introduction of the 2 point system.

It does actually make it easier to set up correctly, at least partly because it so clearly removes the temptation to overtighten the pivot screws. Other than that, it works on precisely the same principles.

Likewise, the PRS bridge with six deeply notched screws is a halfway-house between the two and that doesn't pivot on the body either. The physics is the same in all three cases.

jaymenon

The facets on the top of the baseplate of the Wudtone Tremolo seemed to make sense to me, in that the dome heads of the screws do not foul against the upper surface of the baseplate.

Fender Trem

https://i.imgur.com/vW8Y4Er.jpg

Wudtone Trem

https://i.imgur.com/h9vnqml.jpg

Then I realised that using screws with countersunk heads would achieve the same thing.

Then I took a close-up photograph of my own tremolo and I saw that the baseplate actually sits a millimetre or so below the dome screw heads. And therefore (unless I actually do dive bombs) the screwheads do not foul against the upper surface of the baseplate.

https://i.imgur.com/JTGT99t.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/LiwUV43.jpg

Assuming a well cut nut and a nicely set up tremolo  etc, the site of friction that causes traditional tremolos to go out of tune is not the tremolo’s ability (or otherwise) to return to the zero point.

It is the strings ‘hanging’ at the upper surface of the base plate as they angle 45° forwards on their way to the saddles.

John Suhr and Trevor Wilkinson designed locking saddles that eliminate this phenomenon (though 25 years ago Floyd Rose did the same thing with the non-fine tuner Floyd Rose tremolo).

Wudtone attempted to address this by ‘radiusing’ that point. 

https://i.imgur.com/af4ruUa.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/AaCWMEb.jpg

Gotoh addressed this elegantly by removing completely that point with the their 510 series tremolos that have slits in the baseplate and upper surface of the tremolo block, such that the strings touch nothing from the ball ends on the way to the top of the saddles. Oddly that applies only to the zinc blocks
https://i.imgur.com/031JoIU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/XU5N2Yn.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/58e4HjI.jpg

andy_k

All I will say in response, is, yes that is how it is supposed to work in theory---
in practice, you are applying downward pressure on the arm to depress the tremolo, all that downward pressure has to go somewhere, something has to oppose it, otherwise there will be unintended friction and movement.
I propose that force is negated by the radiussed section of the bridge plate being in contact with the body.
I never mention over tightening the screws, I am talking about a correct setup.
Fenders original design is brilliant and simple, and works-to an extent, but maybe the real brilliance was to build it around parts that will wear and become unreliable-needing constant maintenance, replacement, or professional set ups.
You are talking about a set up that relies on wearing in, and guess what comes after, wearing out.
The physics of designs that are intended to pivot on pivot points are refinements on designs that pivoted on screw shafts, and were intended to eliminate friction.
Attempting to align 6 notched screws is not a step forward is it really, when 2 works perfectly.
We obviously think about this thing differently, and I still do not accept your claims, so that's it, I am allowed to have my own thoughts on the matter, but that does not make me wrong.
You keep doing it your way, and I'll keep doing it mine.

jaymenon

Two obviously intelligent people @andy_k and @ICBM ;;, each with some very valid, true and wise points about various aspects of tremolo design and function.

But with different opinions about whether the tremolo base plate actually touches the body of the guitar. That is very much objective / factual - and not subject to personal opinion.

The under surface of the tremolo baseplate either does or doesn't touch the body. 

Both of you cannot be right.

I (and many others here) benefit a great deal from the wisdom of luthiers here, can we look at this objectively please?

Please take a good look at the tremolo in profile and see whether it touches the body (or not).

jaymenon

andy_k said:

All I will say in response, is, yes that is how it is supposed to work in theory---
in practice, you are applying downward pressure on the arm to depress the tremolo, all that downward pressure has to go somewhere, something has to oppose it, otherwise there will be unintended friction and movement.
I propose that force is negated by the radiussed section of the bridge plate being in contact with the body.
I never mention over tightening the screws, I am talking about a correct setup.
Fenders original design is brilliant and simple, and works-to an extent, but maybe the real brilliance was to build it around parts that will wear and become unreliable-needing constant maintenance, replacement, or professional set ups.
You are talking about a set up that relies on wearing in, and guess what comes after, wearing out.
The physics of designs that are intended to pivot on pivot points are refinements on designs that pivoted on screw shafts, and were intended to eliminate friction.
Attempting to align 6 notched screws is not a step forward is it really, when 2 works perfectly.
We obviously think about this thing differently, and I still do not accept your claims, so that's it, I am allowed to have my own thoughts on the matter, but that does not make me wrong.
You keep doing it your way, and I'll keep doing it mine.

When I apply downward pressure at the end of my tremolo arm, the portion of the bridge closer to the neck moves downwards. The bridge pivots, and the portion closer to the butt of the guitar moves upwards.

So it's a see-saw motion, not all downward force.

Parts that will wear and become unreliable - I agree completely @andy_k ;

andy_k

I have a pic I just took, 


which convinces me, that the pivot point is along the front edge of the bridge and the body, I simply cannot see any closer.

andy_k

I would add that I originally intended to look at a Fender strat, but then realised it is not visible with a scratchplate-DOH,
this is one of my frankensteins, set up decked with 3 springs, it took considerable force to push down on the arm, obviously set up is personal, as well as optimised for the purpose.
I am not saying it cannot work as suggested by @ICBM , I am saying my understanding is there has to be some stability and practicality to a set up, and it has to stand up to continued use, the Wudtone system also incorporates a metal baseplate to act as a rocker for the baseplate-this is there for a reason.

ICBM

andy_k said:

I have a pic I just took, 

which convinces me, that the pivot point is along the front edge of the bridge and the body, I simply cannot see any closer.

The front edge of the bridge - forward of the screws - will touch the body if you push it down far enough, but that's not what it's pivoting on. The pivot point is the top edge of the bridgeplate just under the screw heads on the back (right as you look at it there) side of the pivot screws. Move it slightly and you'll see it.

jaymenon

The Part of the bridge that pivots (well or badly) is the butt side of the six screw holes. 

Point A - in this (Wudtone) picture.

https://i.imgur.com/h9vnqml.jpg

They pivot against the side of the six screws

Fez

Re the Gotoh blocks they are cast from Mazak which is a zinc alloy it would be an order of magnitude more expensive to machine that style block from steel.

andy_k

There is contact between the plate and the screws, obviously, but I am convinced the bridge rocks along the bottom curved edge, the contact with the screw is moving as the bridge rocks, it obviously depends on how vigorously the thing is moved, but the contact with the curved edge and the body remains constant, depending on how stiff the setup is.
It could vary between guitars, it could vary between setups. there is no right or wrong really-it is all preference.
My experience may very well differ from yours, but I'm not really calling you wrong am I, I am just stating how I see it.

jaymenon

https://i.imgur.com/TBouLjA.jpg

ICBM

andy_k said:

There is contact between the plate and the screws, obviously, but I am convinced the bridge rocks along the bottom curved edge, the contact with the screw is moving as the bridge rocks, it obviously depends on how vigorously the thing is moved, but the contact with the curved edge and the body remains constant, depending on how stiff the setup is.
It could vary between guitars, it could vary between setups. there is no right or wrong really-it is all preference.
My experience may very well differ from yours, but I'm not really calling you wrong am I, I am just stating how I see it.

No, sorry - you're simply wrong about this. I'm not trying to be confrontational but there is no other way of putting it.

The physics is quite straightforward - the force of the strings and springs is exerted parallel to the body, and the bridge pivots on the front edge of the holes in the bridgeplate against the sides of the screw shafts. If it also *rubs* against the body on the underneath - which it doesn't if it's set correctly - then that is when you get unnecessary friction and tuning problems.

It does explain why you can't get them to work reliably as well.

andy_k

jaymenon said:

The Part of the bridge that pivots (well or badly) is the butt side of the six screw holes. 

Point A - in this (Wudtone) picture.

https://i.imgur.com/h9vnqml.jpg

They pivot against the side of the six screws

This diagram also shows part D, which is the plate I refer to, under the tension of the strings and springs, which is considerable at the pivot point, and is therefore the reason this plate is part of the Wudtone design, it allows less friction in the area that has to absorb the pressure when the assembly is moved.
At a microscopic level there is wear to the pivot contact point (the screw / bridge plate interface) which is ongoing.
The baseplate that Wudtone introduced acts as a hinge point with the curved edge of the bridge.

andy_k

I am sorry, I am using pivot point as a term which is confusing, I understand the screw acts as the point where the trem actually moves, but I am trying to explain that in practice, the movement happens along the curved edge of the bridge plate, I don't mean to confuse things.