6 screw vs Twin Pivot Strat Tremolos - This 'Experiment' Makes No Sense To Me

andy_k

jaymenon said:

The debate over whether the strings are exactly parallel or only slightly parallel is futile.  Whether the strings are parallel to the body’s axis - or the fingerboard’s datum line projection - or slightly angled is irrelevant.  The vector component of the string and spring tension forming shear forces acting parallel to the body is HUGE.  

There will be a tiny component of the spring and string tension pulling the bridge down but this is swamped by the enormous frictional forces acting upon the pivot by the longitudinal component.  Such a downward pull would have to be very, very large to overcome that frictional component.  Basically you have two balanced shear forces acting upon the pivot which, regardless of the angle of string and spring, are always equal, until you add an unbalancing force from the trem arm.  

Assuming an angle of 1° of arc deviation from the fingerboard datum line the vector component of the strings tension acting parallel to this reference line is approximately 0.99985 of the string’s tension.  

For a string tension if approx 8kg, that’s only less by 1.2g - or 0.00015%

I repeat: 1.2 grams

With respect, you have boggled my mind here, but in an earlier post you said you had always believed there must be some contact between the bridge and the body, you were talking about your setup, which isn't the same setup I am using-a decked bridge. If you look at my picture I show a DECKED bridge in a dive bomb position, I am pushing the arm down, and you can see how these forces you talk about can cause the bridge plate to slide down the screws.
It is simply how it works in practice.

Bridgehouse

andy_k said:

This is a weird thread, where we all know guitar setup is a personal thing, yet some are insisting they are right because there is only one correct way.
I have tried to explain how some artists who used the device overcame the shortcomings, so there must be shortcomings right?
Or would you be telling them they haven't got it set up right?

Actually, I don't see why this is weird at all. Or indeed why there is any debate.

Fender's original patent clearly describes how the bridge is supposed to function:

"Formed in the body 1 is a transverse slot 12 which communicates at the under side of the'body with a recess 13 directed toward the neck 2. Mounted on the body 1 adjacent the slot 12 is a base plate 14, one margin of which is beveled to form a fulcrumridge 15. The beveled margin of the base plate 14 is secured to the body 1 by screws 16 which permit limited pivotal movement of the base plate about the fulcrum 15. The fulcrum is located forwardly of the slot 12, that is, toward the-neck 2."



Even Fender themselves in their original patent show the fulcrum as 15, which is exactly where @ICBM says it is when correctly set up. 

ICBM

andy_k said:

This is a weird thread, where we all know guitar setup is a personal thing, yet some are insisting they are right because there is only one correct way.
I have tried to explain how some artists who used the device overcame the shortcomings, so there must be shortcomings right?
Or would you be telling them they haven't got it set up right?

No, you're missing the point. There isn't only one way to set up a Strat vibrato - but there is only one that really works as well as it can. The bigger point is understanding *how* it works, which then allows you to see *why* that is the case. The misinformation being put out about *how* it works (which is what is incorrect) makes it more difficult to learn how to set it so it does work.

You're certainly right that if you use it to wild extremes, it doesn't hold tuning all that well - but the main reason for that is actually the nut, rather than the bridge, and this is what the Floyd Rose was originally intended to fix. You may be able to see in my video that I do actually move the bridge quite a long way, and I can assure you that it returns to pitch as well as any non-locking vibrato.

I also have no idea how any famous guitarists set their bridges up - given the historic lack of much proper information, it's not impossible they weren't doing it the best way. Being a genius player doesn't always mean they're a competent guitar tech... you only have to look at EVH's Frankenstrat to know that .

Voxman

 Can't believe this bun fight is still going on!  ...easy solution, get a hardtail Strat or lock the trem! Then, no more trem set up problems!! Simples. Lol 

Seziertisch

https://youtu.be/WboggjN_G-4

andy_k

Bridgehouse said:

andy_k said:

This is a weird thread, where we all know guitar setup is a personal thing, yet some are insisting they are right because there is only one correct way.
I have tried to explain how some artists who used the device overcame the shortcomings, so there must be shortcomings right?
Or would you be telling them they haven't got it set up right?

Actually, I don't see why this is weird at all. Or indeed why there is any debate.

Fender's original patent clearly describes how the bridge is supposed to function:

"Formed in the body 1 is a transverse slot 12 which communicates at the under side of the'body with a recess 13 directed toward the neck 2. Mounted on the body 1 adjacent the slot 12 is a base plate 14, one margin of which is beveled to form a fulcrumridge 15. The beveled margin of the base plate 14 is secured to the body 1 by screws 16 which permit limited pivotal movement of the base plate about the fulcrum 15. The fulcrum is located forwardly of the slot 12, that is, toward the-neck 2."



Even Fender themselves in their original patent show the fulcrum as 15, which is exactly where @ICBM says it is when correctly set up. 

Not to be picky, but can you, or @ICBM ; clarify what the gap should be at position 15? or it is open to interpretation ?, Leo looks like he's got it too tight, and maybe it won't work in practice.
Maybe we shouldn't be talking about it?
I have already used up all my words on this thread, so I'm out.
Peace

stephen.wood125

Sassafras said:

What make of  blutak is he using?
 This could make a dramatic difference in the final outcome of the test.

Is it tone blutak?

ICBM

andy_k said:

Not to be picky, but can you, or @ICBM ;; clarify what the gap should be at position 15? or it is open to interpretation ?, Leo looks like he's got it too tight, and maybe it won't work in practice.

The patent diagram is unfortunately not that well-drawn and isn’t clear. (This is actually quite common in those stylised patent drawings.)

But I can tell you what the correct setting is - which is also how Fender set them up - it’s with the screw heads (all six) just high enough that the bridge floats freely without contacting either the underside of the heads or the body. I’m not sure how many different ways I can possibly explain that .

If you want the bridge set flat on the top then you can have them a little tighter so they just touch the plate, but they still must not be tight enough to force the front of the bridge down against the bevel on the underside, that’s exactly what causes binding and wear.

Just watch the videos... it should be pretty clear, and it’s not exactly rocket science .

Nerine

This is all getting a bit flat Earth. 

The bridge does not pivot on the body. 

It pivots on the screws protruding from the body. 

The front of the bridge baseplate should not bind on the body for optimal operation. This would just gouge/dent the wood on the top of the guitar, otherwise. It’s why in that patent drawing you can see the baseplate is chamfered so it DOESN’T foul on the body when it’s tipped forwards. The rotational point of the pivot is slightly behind the leading edge of the bridge baseplate. So there is always going to be a downward circular movement around this fulcrum. 

It would also wear the screws more quickly because the front of the bridge pushing down on the body would create an opposing upwards force on the screw threads on the opposite side (where the baseplate pivots on the screws), Which would increase wear and tuning instability. 

When dipping the trem, the very front edge of the bridge baseplate needs “somewhere to go”. If you dip the bar and the front of the bridge baseplate then contacts the body (due to the baseplate protruding past the screws similar to a really oddly pivoted see-saw) the baseplate will hit the body. Due to the pivot point, the other side of this pivot will be *forced* upwards against the screw threads on the knife edge of the baseplate. 

If there were no strings on the guitar, the resultant outcome would likely be the knife edge of the baseplate where the pivot happens would move up a few threads on the screw. Or there would be upwards movement anyway. This is only ever going to wear out the bridge and the screws when it’s all under tension and set up incorrectly in the above example. 

It’s really not too difficult to understand. 

andy_k

From Fenders own site, explaining setup of vintage 6 tremolo.

''First, remove the tremolo back cover. Check your tuning. For a vintage-style tremolo bridge, a great way to enhance its performance is to pull the bridge back flush with the body using the tremolo arm. Then loosen all six screws located at the front edge of the bridge plate, raising them so that they all measure approximately 1/16" (1.6 mm) above the top of the bridge plate. Then tighten the two outside screws back down until they're flush with the top of the bridge plate. The bridge will now pivot on the outside screws, leaving the four inside screws in place for bridge stability. For a two-pivot model such as the American Series bridge, use your tremolo arm to pull the bridge back flush with the body and adjust the two pivot screws to the point where the tremolo plate sits entirely flush at the body (not lifted at the front or back of the plate).''

linked here.
https://support.fender.com/hc/en-us/articles/212774786-How-do-I-set-up-my-Stratocaster-guitar-properly-

@nerine,
You are trying to understand what we are talking about, without really understanding.
There are no screw threads involved in this discussion, we have been trying to establish the correct setup of a vintage 6 tremolo, and despite my recognition that I understand how it works, and my explanations that there are various ways to set these things up, some people insist I am doing it wrong.
They are missing the point, and will not accept that they might not be 100% correct in this situation.
Somebody will be along in a minute to say that Fender have got it wrong in the instructions I post above, and that is fine.
It is only an opinion.
There is no flat earth discussion here, only a healthy argument on the pro's and con's of a 70 year old piece of tech, and the various ways it can be set up. 

Philly_Q

You guys have the patience of saints to keep this thread going, I have to say.

Nerine

andy_k said:

From Fenders own site, explaining setup of vintage 6 tremolo.

''First, remove the tremolo back cover. Check your tuning. For a vintage-style tremolo bridge, a great way to enhance its performance is to pull the bridge back flush with the body using the tremolo arm. Then loosen all six screws located at the front edge of the bridge plate, raising them so that they all measure approximately 1/16" (1.6 mm) above the top of the bridge plate. Then tighten the two outside screws back down until they're flush with the top of the bridge plate. The bridge will now pivot on the outside screws, leaving the four inside screws in place for bridge stability. For a two-pivot model such as the American Series bridge, use your tremolo arm to pull the bridge back flush with the body and adjust the two pivot screws to the point where the tremolo plate sits entirely flush at the body (not lifted at the front or back of the plate).''

linked here.
https://support.fender.com/hc/en-us/articles/212774786-How-do-I-set-up-my-Stratocaster-guitar-properly-

@nerine,
You are trying to understand what we are talking about, without really understanding.
There are no screw threads involved in this discussion, we have been trying to establish the correct setup of a vintage 6 tremolo, and despite my recognition that I understand how it works, and my explanations that there are various ways to set these things up, some people insist I am doing it wrong.
They are missing the point, and will not accept that they might not be 100% correct in this situation.
Somebody will be along in a minute to say that Fender have got it wrong in the instructions I post above, and that is fine.
It is only an opinion.
There is no flat earth discussion here, only a healthy argument on the pro's and con's of a 70 year old piece of tech, and the various ways it can be set up. 

With all due respect, I’m not sure it’s me that is having the issue with understanding. 

The front of the bridge should not be clamped down onto the body of a guitar that has a 6 screw vintage style tremolo. 

Watch this video. It may help you achieve what you are trying to:

https://youtu.be/OUkKZy8U_gA


And with that, I’m out. This thread is bonkers. 

ICBM

andy_k said:

From Fenders own site, explaining setup of vintage 6 tremolo.

''First, remove the tremolo back cover. Check your tuning. For a vintage-style tremolo bridge, a great way to enhance its performance is to pull the bridge back flush with the body using the tremolo arm. Then loosen all six screws located at the front edge of the bridge plate, raising them so that they all measure approximately 1/16" (1.6 mm) above the top of the bridge plate. Then tighten the two outside screws back down until they're flush with the top of the bridge plate. The bridge will now pivot on the outside screws, leaving the four inside screws in place for bridge stability. For a two-pivot model such as the American Series bridge, use your tremolo arm to pull the bridge back flush with the body and adjust the two pivot screws to the point where the tremolo plate sits entirely flush at the body (not lifted at the front or back of the plate).''they're flush with the top of the bridge plate

linked here.
https://support.fender.com/hc/en-us/articles/212774786-How-do-I-set-up-my-Stratocaster-guitar-properly-

Oh dear. That's really a problem, because that's exactly what *not* to do. It's also factually incorrect, because the bridge still pivots on all six screws, it's just that the contact point is further down the screw shaft on the middle four.

This wouldn't be the first time though - Fender also advise that the arm should be taken out when the guitar is put in the case. Not only is that missing the point of the back angle Leo Fender designed into the arm socket in the first place - which is so the arm can be swung round to over the body when you put it away - it also causes unnecessary wear on the threads.

Once again, just watch the videos above and you can see the bridge working exactly as it should with a gap under it and the screws all up by the same amount.

But I'm clearly not going to convince anyone who is quite determined to ignore the evidence.

andy_k said:

There is no flat earth discussion here, only a healthy argument on the pro's and con's of a 70 year old piece of tech, and the various ways it can be set up. 

Philly_Q said:

You guys have the patience of saints to keep this thread going, I have to say.

I just find it absolutely baffling how some people simply want to ignore all the evidence presented about how the bridge actually does work and how to make it work best. Why would anyone want to deliberately ignore that?

It really is like Flat Earth.

No doubt we'll have to go through all this again in a year or so when Andy Preston decides to come back under another new identity too.

andy_k

There is no hard feeling here, I find it fascinating how some people can not wrap their head around the nuances we are discussing, for clarification, I do not ignore any of the evidence as to how it works, I have been using it as a bridge for over 35 years, and all I really stated was that it did not work reliably for me,

Some of the factual evidence above shows up some problems of understanding, the patent drawings and Fenders own instructions are wrong according to a few members here, and maybe that has led to some misunderstanding.
It isn't anything like flat earth, that is bonkers, and when people throw those terms into any argument you will always get a few people who pile in just to stir things up.
I don't need anybody to try to tell me how the thing works, I do understand it, but I have no Idea who Andy Preston is, or why he  gets brought up? Is there a history here?
Some insinuation maybe?

ICBM

andy_k said:

I have no Idea who Andy Preston is, or why he  gets brought up? Is there a history here?
Some insinuation maybe?

He is/was bodo, and is/owns Wudtone.

andy_k

I wouldn't know that, but I have just looked at his site. I don't care about the history here really, but he has got a video which shows exactly the issues I have been trying to explain, at the 1 minute mark you can clearly see the effect that causes the wear on the vintage 6.



He might be a bad boy, but he did make a good video explaining the issue.

ICBM

andy_k said:

I wouldn't know that, but I have just looked at his site. I don't care about the history here really, but he has got a video which shows exactly the issues I have been trying to explain, at the 1 minute mark you can clearly see the effect that causes the wear on the vintage 6.

If you're trying to prove a sales point by holding the arm well off to the side when you push it down you can maybe get it to do that deliberately - look at the focus on the arm. It doesn't in normal use.

I'm really done with this, I've explained any number of times that I can set them up exactly as I've described so they work properly and shown it in a video which isn't a sales pitch for anything. Why you're trying to prove that something happens that doesn't happen either in normal use, or as you do it with the bridge flat on the top, makes me wonder again what your connection to Wudtone is.

Over and out.

andy_k

I have absolutely no connection to Wudtone, I can assure you.
I am only posting the video to show the effect I have experienced myself, which led me to using a Floyd Rose for my own whammy guitars.
You are denying something exists, because it doesn't fit your understanding of the issue.
Doesn't change the fact that the problem exists.

Bridgehouse

andy_k said:

There is no hard feeling here, I find it fascinating how some people can not wrap their head around the nuances we are discussing, for clarification, I do not ignore any of the evidence as to how it works, I have been using it as a bridge for over 35 years, and all I really stated was that it did not work reliably for me,

Some of the factual evidence above shows up some problems of understanding, the patent drawings and Fenders own instructions are wrong according to a few members here, and maybe that has led to some misunderstanding.
It isn't anything like flat earth, that is bonkers, and when people throw those terms into any argument you will always get a few people who pile in just to stir things up.
I don't need anybody to try to tell me how the thing works, I do understand it, but I have no Idea who Andy Preston is, or why he  gets brought up? Is there a history here?
Some insinuation maybe?

You've clearly not noticed that one member who contributed to this thread has now been banned because it was Andy Preston. Andy had an account here a while ago and he was banned. You aren't allowed more than one account, nor are you allowed a second account to get round a permanent ban. Hence, he was banned.

Nerine

andy_k said:

I wouldn't know that, but I have just looked at his site. I don't care about the history here really, but he has got a video which shows exactly the issues I have been trying to explain, at the 1 minute mark you can clearly see the effect that causes the wear on the vintage 6.



He might be a bad boy, but he did make a good video explaining the issue.

This proves nothing. 

He’s showing the difference between a worn out tremolo and a new aftermarket one. 

The results aren’t exactly unexpected. 

“Check out how well this totally worn out tremolo works!! Now check out how well my new tremolo works.” 

Also the guitar playing in the video is horrid. I don’t know who that is, but it’s nasty. 

The video is a sales pitch and is misleading at best. 

I’ve owned a lot of guitars with various styles of tremolo. None have ever worked as badly as that one in the video. Never. None of them have had issues with tuning stability either. All of them have been rock solid.