6 screw vs Twin Pivot Strat Tremolos - This 'Experiment' Makes No Sense To Me

ThePrettyDamned

I definitely don't get a reverb from the guitar with a trem set flat to the body.

Actually, on my strat at least, it loses a bit of something - it doesn't sound as good as when it does floating. 

I use a 6 point trem and, provided my nut is lubricated (hello, sailor), I am able to do pretty drastic stuff with no tuning issues. 

I will file this in the same place as "bigsby trems do not hold tune" - no, poorly set up guitars don't hold tune. Most strat trem tuning issues I've experienced are nut related. 

Actually, if I "deck" the trem I lose tuning stability - I wonder if the trem floating helps the springs to sort of "compensate" for any small sticks in the nut or on a saddle? @icbm maybe you would know... 

andy_k

If it works for you, it works.
you might even think, having a decked trem is the same as having a hardtail.
But no, that's silly.
I have never used a Bigsby, so wouldn't dare comment.
And my daily driver is a tele, when I want to use a trem, I use a floating Floyd Rose.
Call me wrong if you like, that's the way I like it.

jaymenon

My thoughts:

The Strat trem was designed originally to float - and so to allow pitch variation both above and below the note(s) - 1950s style. Hank Marvin etc.

If you deck your tremolo, by using more springs or tightening your spring claw, then arguably your set up is different from how the tremolo was originally designed, Not wrong - but different. It only allows downwards movement of the pitch - and with a lot more manual force required on the trem arm.

If the top surface of your bridge plate is in contact with the undersurface of the dome heads of your screws, then the portion of the bridge in contact with the six screws has to move downwards, unless you have the Wudtone facets on the upper surface of your baseplate (which eliminates any such contact. Arguably a set of countersunk screws would do the same thing).

But then we’re talking about a tremolo that’s set up to operate outside of what it was originally intended to do.

Does that make sense?

HAL9000

ThePrettyDamned said:

I definitely don't get a reverb from the guitar with a trem set flat to the body.

Is that due to the trem being set flat? Or because the springs have been tightened?

andy_k

jaymenon said:

My thoughts:

The Strat trem was designed originally to float - and so to allow pitch variation both above and below the note(s) - 1950s style. Hank Marvin etc.

If you deck your tremolo, by using more springs or tightening your spring claw, then arguably your set up is different from how the tremolo was originally designed, Not wrong - but different. It only allows downwards movement of the pitch - and with a lot more manual force required on the trem arm.

If the top surface of your bridge plate is in contact with the undersurface of the dome heads of your screws, then the portion of the bridge in contact with the six screws has to move downwards, unless you have the Wudtone facets on the upper surface of your baseplate (which eliminates any such contact. Arguably a set of countersunk screws would do the same thing).

But then we’re talking about a tremolo that’s set up to operate outside of what it was originally intended to do.

Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense, you understand the points I was making.
Vibrato is the effect of a pitch oscillating above and below the original pitch.
Hank Marvin was the main proponent of this style of playing, but by the mid 60's Hendrix had already used the Fender tremolo unit far beyond it's original intention, EVH in the mid 70's forced it to have to evolve.
Clapton also understood it's limitations, and chose to have it decked, with 5 springs and a block.
I guess it is called innovation, evolution, caused by pushing things beyond their limits.
Wudtone had a good stab at addressing the problem in a vintage sympathetic way.

Nerine

This thread hurts my brain. 

ThePrettyDamned

HAL9000 said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

I definitely don't get a reverb from the guitar with a trem set flat to the body.

Is that due to the trem being set flat? Or because the springs have been tightened?

Neither. I don't get reverb when it's floating, either. 

It's not like a jazzmaster with loads of sympathetic vibrations behind the bridge that can feed back into the strings (and therefore can be picked up by the pickups). 

andy_k said:

jaymenon said:

My thoughts:

The Strat trem was designed originally to float - and so to allow pitch variation both above and below the note(s) - 1950s style. Hank Marvin etc.

If you deck your tremolo, by using more springs or tightening your spring claw, then arguably your set up is different from how the tremolo was originally designed, Not wrong - but different. It only allows downwards movement of the pitch - and with a lot more manual force required on the trem arm.

If the top surface of your bridge plate is in contact with the undersurface of the dome heads of your screws, then the portion of the bridge in contact with the six screws has to move downwards, unless you have the Wudtone facets on the upper surface of your baseplate (which eliminates any such contact. Arguably a set of countersunk screws would do the same thing).

But then we’re talking about a tremolo that’s set up to operate outside of what it was originally intended to do.

Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense, you understand the points I was making.
Vibrato is the effect of a pitch oscillating above and below the original pitch.
Hank Marvin was the main proponent of this style of playing, but by the mid 60's Hendrix had already used the Fender tremolo unit far beyond it's original intention, EVH in the mid 70's forced it to have to evolve.
Clapton also understood it's limitations, and chose to have it decked, with 5 springs and a block.
I guess it is called innovation, evolution, caused by pushing things beyond their limits.
Wudtone had a good stab at addressing the problem in a vintage sympathetic way.

I've got two wudtone bridges and, while they're quality items, I don't feel they are significantly better than any other well made 6 point trem. 

jaymenon

ThePrettyDamned said:

I've got two wudtone bridges and, while they're quality items, I don't feel they are significantly better than any other well made 6 point trem. 

That’s because neither the Wudtone not the other traditional tremolos address a major point of friction where the strings tend to get stuck. 

i.e. at the top of the base plate where they make a 45° angle forwards to go towards the saddles.

I have talked about this a lot, but nobody seems to be interested. For the life of me I cannot figure out why. I am particularly pernickety about my guitar staying in tune and I never found a Stratocaster trem Tthat really really stayed in tune apart from the Gotoh 510
with the FST block. (And of course the non-fine tuner Floyd Rose).

jaymenon

In fact John Suhr and Trevor Wilkinson together designed looking saddles for the Stratocaster tremolo where the strings are locked at the saddles, for this very same purpose

they are on the Pete Thorn model.

andy_k

Stevie Ray had his own solution to that problem, he slid a little piece of plastic tubing over the string at the break point, or rather his tech did. ( mainly to help with string breakage )
I did mention Guthrie Govan's model earlier.
My main point wasn't really about tuning stability anyway, it was about a design that has the tendency to wear out if used excessively.
The '78' model limited edition EVH replica even came with a can of 3 in 1 oil to lubricate the brass nut he was using.
There were a lot of ways to get around the problems people had with their 'poorly setup' instruments.

clarkydaz

jaymenon said:

In fact John Suhr and Trevor Wilkinson together designed looking saddles for the Stratocaster tremolo where the strings are locked at the saddles, for this very same purpose

they are on the Pete Thorn model.

hopefully someone will come out with a bent steel saddle version, id be all over that

Nerine

Is the argument that the bridge uses the top of the body to pivot on?!?

That’s all kinds of wrong. 

If the front of the bridge is too close to the body, when the bar gets dipped, the front edge will move downwards, causing the bridge to hit the top/body of the guitar. This will just make the knife-edges wear quickly because there will be opposing forces. Both up and down and whatnot. It will also hamper movement. 

The bridge pivots around notches in the screws that mount the bridge to the body. I can’t talk for every guitar, but I think I’m right in assuming a special kind of screw which has the pivot notch cut into them. This is why on a six screw bridge it’s even more crucial to get them all aligned correctly otherwise it’ll be really unevenly worn and tuning stability will be compromised. 

My Suhr has a two post trem mount. (Gotoh 510) The bridge sits slightly proud of the body and runs parallel with the body. None of the bridge touches the body unless you pull up on the bar, which then the rear of the bridge stops against the body.

I don’t really understand what the confusion is about. 

Nerine

andy_k said:

I have a pic I just took, 


which convinces me, that the pivot point is along the front edge of the bridge and the body, I simply cannot see any closer.

I think you have the trem springs too loosely set, the bridge screws too low and the saddles set too high. 

ThePrettyDamned

jaymenon said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

I've got two wudtone bridges and, while they're quality items, I don't feel they are significantly better than any other well made 6 point trem. 

That’s because neither the Wudtone not the other traditional tremolos address a major point of friction where the strings tend to get stuck. 

i.e. at the top of the base plate where they make a 45° angle forwards to go towards the saddles.

I have talked about this a lot, but nobody seems to be interested. For the life of me I cannot figure out why. I am particularly pernickety about my guitar staying in tune and I never found a Stratocaster trem Tthat really really stayed in tune apart from the Gotoh 510
with the FST block. (And of course the non-fine tuner Floyd Rose).

I can dive nearly dive bomb my strat (only can't because the route is not big enough!) and tuning stability is pretty great. On the rare occasion things do stick somewhere, it's the nut, everytime. The bridge itself is perfectly fine in my experience. 

Of course, it doesn't compare to a Floyd or similar but even if it does get a bit awry at the nut, I often just give a quick, gentle wobble and it unsticks and I'm back in tune. 

It is not as rock solid as the jazzmaster trem but that sounds so completely different (even with strat pickups like mine) that it's not worth comparing. The jazzmaster has very limited range as well, in comparison. 

andy_k

Nerine said:

andy_k said:

I have a pic I just took, 


which convinces me, that the pivot point is along the front edge of the bridge and the body, I simply cannot see any closer.

I think you have the trem springs too loosely set, the bridge screws too low and the saddles set too high. 

Sorry, I think you need to read the thread to understand what we are talking about here. There is no confusion, it is not an argument, it is a discussion.
thanks.

Nerine

andy_k said:

Nerine said:

andy_k said:

I have a pic I just took, 


which convinces me, that the pivot point is along the front edge of the bridge and the body, I simply cannot see any closer.

I think you have the trem springs too loosely set, the bridge screws too low and the saddles set too high. 

Sorry, I think you need to read the thread to understand what we are talking about here. There is no confusion, it is not an argument, it is a discussion.
thanks.

I’m struggling to ascertain what the discussion topic actually is. 

ICBM

Nerine said:

Is the argument that the bridge uses the top of the body to pivot on?!?

That’s all kinds of wrong. 

If the front of the bridge is too close to the body, when the bar gets dipped, the front edge will move downwards, causing the bridge to hit the top/body of the guitar. This will just make the knife-edges wear quickly because there will be opposing forces. Both up and down and whatnot. It will also hamper movement. 

The bridge pivots around notches in the screws that mount the bridge to the body. I can’t talk for every guitar, but I think I’m right in assuming a special kind of screw which has the pivot notch cut into them. This is why on a six screw bridge it’s even more crucial to get them all aligned correctly otherwise it’ll be really unevenly worn and tuning stability will be compromised. 

My Suhr has a two post trem mount. (Gotoh 510) The bridge sits slightly proud of the body and runs parallel with the body. None of the bridge touches the body unless you pull up on the bar, which then the rear of the bridge stops against the body.

I don’t really understand what the confusion is about. 

The confusion is exactly that - there's a widespread and incorrect belief that the bridge pivots on the body, not helped by at least one manufacturer of replacement bridges actually making this a point of their design and sales copy!

Coupled with widespread but also incorrect advice on how to set them up, the result of this is an erroneous belief that the standard 6-screw Strat bridge doesn't stay in tune well. It does! At least for 'normal' use - I do take andy_k's point that if you want to use it as you can with a Floyd Rose, it won't - but it will to a much greater degree than usually thought.

There are no actual notches in the Fender screws, but it does work on precisely the same physics as bridges with six notched screws or two grooved posts if it's allowed to float freely and not forced to slide up and down the screws, and wear is not a significant issue like that. Fender bridges from the 1950s are still usually in perfect working order if they haven't been wrongly adjusted.

My only purpose of posting on this thread is to try to help people understand why, and what to do about it if theirs doesn't. Just because something is 'received wisdom' doesn't mean it's necessarily right, and if I know it isn't then I will say something about it - I think it's important for people to be able to get the most out of their guitars in the simplest way.

That is all...


For the next topic of argument: why a Bigsby is so difficult to re-string . (Clue: it isn't .)

nonesuch

So in layman's terms, can we say that if the bridge is 'floating' it pivots on the screws? With a gap underneath? However, if the bridge is 'decked' (or flat against the body) then it rocks back and forth on the beveled front of the bridge? The second scenario not being how the bridge was originally designed to function?

And @ICBM this is very helpful information, and it really does help me to understand how it's supposed to work!

Kind of...

ICBM

nonesuch said:

So in layman's terms, can we say that if the bridge is 'floating' it pivots on the screws? With a gap underneath? However, if the bridge is 'decked' (or flat against the body) then it rocks back and forth on the beveled front of the bridge? The second scenario not being how the bridge was originally designed to function?

No, if it's correctly adjusted with a small amount of free play under the screw heads, then even if it's decked, the bevel on the underside of the bridge - being *behind* the pivot point, slightly - will simply lift off the body as the bridge tilts upwards.

This is the one way where the Wudtone bridge can be an improvement, because the recesses behind the screw heads do guarantee that it will lift off cleanly and the plate not be forced to move down the screws and then rub against the body, even if the screw heads are fully down against the plate at the front.

But you can in fact achieve the same thing just by raising the screws the same as you would for a floating bridge - unless you've got a really excessive amount of spring tension, the front of the bridge won't try to rise up... and if it does, the spring tension is probably too large to actually use the vibrato anyway, in which case you may as well set the screws flush onto the plate, but that's really outside the scope of making the vibrato work properly .

nonesuch

Haha I was almost right! For what it's worth, my Strat bridge is floating, and it does seems to work without any issues...