Have Line6 lost the plot?

EricTheWeary

http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscellaneous/1139/tc-electronic-flashback-x4-delay-vs-line-6-dl4-delay-modeler/22939 FWIW tc are also annoying - there were quality issues with the early toneprint pedals ( again, lot of this on the net so I don't know if it was significant or just one faulty pedal that got reported a lot) and the issue of Exclusive toneprints is a bugbear. Having bought a toneprint pedal so I can load it with new toneprints you then have to buy a whole new pedal just to get the Exclusive ones on the Alter Ego,etc.

thumpingrug

I have a pod hd500 and a variax JTV69.  I think there grrrrrrrreat.

Had the pod about 3 years and never had a problem with it. Its used daily, sometimes several times a day if I get the chance.

Im eagerly awaiting any new developments following the yamaha takeover.  

monquixote

EricTheWeary said:

http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscellaneous/1139/tc-electronic-flashback-x4-delay-vs-line-6-dl4-delay-modeler/22939 FWIW tc are also annoying - there were quality issues with the early toneprint pedals ( again, lot of this on the net so I don't know if it was significant or just one faulty pedal that got reported a lot) and the issue of Exclusive toneprints is a bugbear. Having bought a toneprint pedal so I can load it with new toneprints you then have to buy a whole new pedal just to get the Exclusive ones on the Alter Ego,etc.

I am not convinced that TC are paragons of reliability either though I suspect they might be better than Line6. 

If you want a fancy, but bomb proof delay the boss Giga Delay or Space Echo is probably the best option.

Heartfeltdawn

monquixote said:

If you want a fancy, but bomb proof delay the boss Giga Delay or Space Echo is probably the best option.

I've had 3 DD20's die on me. 

LIne 6 gets nailed with the 'unreliable' ticket far more than they deserve. Yes, the DL4 has some design issues. So do Gibson guitars with their easy to snap headstocks. 

Drew said that Line 6 have a lack of innovation. Really? The POD set the standard for simple and affordable digital recording gear. The Variax tried to do something fairly out there and wasn't entirely awful. The M series effects units changed everything. Before then, we had the GT units which were still based around patches more than anything else. The Digitech RP units had some flexibility but still nothing like the M-series. Even the TC Nova (if you're looking for a unit with ridiculous design elements that seriously compromise it in use, then the Nova system would be my tip) was a rigidly inflexible machine. 

What multi-effects unit let you place the effects where you wanted, in what order you wanted, and offered so much in such a small box? Nothing. The genius in the M-series wasn't the effects which were the same ol' thing: it was the interface.

meltedbuzzbox

he makes a really good point

monquixote

Heartfeltdawn;319116" said:

monquixote said:





If you want a fancy, but bomb proof delay the boss Giga Delay or Space Echo is probably the best option.





I've had 3 DD20's die on me. 

LIne 6 gets nailed with the 'unreliable' ticket far more than they deserve. Yes, the DL4 has some design issues. So do Gibson guitars with their easy to snap headstocks. 

Drew said that Line 6 have a lack of innovation. Really? The POD set the standard for simple and affordable digital recording gear. The Variax tried to do something fairly out there and wasn't entirely awful. The M series effects units changed everything. Before then, we had the GT units which were still based around patches more than anything else. The Digitech RP units had some flexibility but still nothing like the M-series. Even the TC Nova (if you're looking for a unit with ridiculous design elements that seriously compromise it in use, then the Nova system would be my tip) was a rigidly inflexible machine. 

What multi-effects unit let you place the effects where you wanted, in what order you wanted, and offered so much in such a small box? Nothing. The genius in the M-series wasn't the effects which were the same ol' thing: it was the interface.

Live and learn on the dd20

To have lost the plot you have to have had it in the first place. Line 6 are one of the most innovative music companies ever which is why the recent lack of cool stuff is such a shame.

ICBM

Heartfeltdawn said:

I've had 3 DD20's die on me.

Interesting, I will remember that.

There are a couple of other Boss pedals I've come across with higher than usual failure rates too, although they are among the most common. (DD-3 and TU-2.)

Heartfeltdawn said:

LIne 6 gets nailed with the 'unreliable' ticket far more than they deserve.

To be fair to Line 6 they seem to improve things too. A while ago I would have said the amps were unreliable, when I saw more than a few dead ones. But I haven't seen a single one for really quite a long time now, and they certainly haven't stopped selling them.

Paul_C

This (and the wine) has got me thinking, apart from a s/h Vox AC30 I owned back in the 80s, I can't recall any gear that I've owned that has broken. The AC30 only blew a valve or two though it did frighten the life out of me when blue flame came out of the vents

This is no doubt partly due to me buying new stuff and selling it on before it has time to break, but nevertheless I don't recall anything failing.

Fretwired

@Lev .. I just think the Amplifi is a bid to cash in on the consumer market -

Heartfeltdawn said:

monquixote said:

If you want a fancy, but bomb proof delay the boss Giga Delay or Space Echo is probably the best option.

I've had 3 DD20's die on me. 

LIne 6 gets nailed with the 'unreliable' ticket far more than they deserve. Yes, the DL4 has some design issues. So do Gibson guitars with their easy to snap headstocks. 

Drew said that Line 6 have a lack of innovation. Really?

I think Drew is on about some specifics that have forced him to abandon Line 6 gear and I think he has a point. The company releases and excellent product but fails to develop it further. I still have my original POD from day one and it works. The company then released the POD XT which wasn't compatible with the original POD and then the POD X3 and then the POD HD. The company also developed a line of software and audio interfaces which are not compatible with the latest HD products.

Go to the Line 6 forums and you'll find people wanting amps from the old POD 2 .. the M9 and M13 are great products but have some issues when used live. Line 6 has done nothing to address these issues .. go to the Line 6 forums for the ins and outs.

Users liked the Vetta amp but it was abandoned in favour of several flavours of hybrid Bogner amp - judging by the blow out at Andertons they didn't sell well. Stick to what you know - modelling.

I could go on .. I have loads of Line 6 gear so I'm pro the company but they over extended their product line and backed some poor products. Line 6 were a guitar amp/guitar modelling company.

Drew_TNBD

Innovation was probably the wrong word, and I'm still too stupid to properly articulate myself.

I like their gear, I just wish that it were designed betterer.

Fretwired

Drew_fx said:

Innovation was probably the wrong word, and I'm still too stupid to properly articulate myself.

I like their gear, I just wish that it were designed betterer.

I think innovation is the right word. The M9 and M13 had some issues .. these should have been addressed in an upgrade or new model. However Line 6 has done nothing to improve either the M9/M13 or the POD HD line [other than the release of a few new amps and some extra DSP capability via a chip upgrade]. Look at the Axe FX .. a product that continues to be refined and developed.

impmann

What are the 'issues' with M13?

I've just done a Google search and there appears to be a lot of random threads and rants but with no specific symptoms. And when pressed on these tales, most say they have not returned them to Line6 for repair... which seems odd if the unit is under warranty, doesn't it?

Ranting on line about issues doesn't fix faults - it's just whingeing. No manufacturer has the time to sift through *all* the comments made about their products - if you honestly believe that they do, then you are delusional! Half the comments made about a particular product on the internet are phoney anyway - and I'm being kind about it being 50%. A bit like the guy who I challenged who was making a fuss about a non fault on a forum about a particular product.... when pushed, it turned out he didn't even *own* the product he was slating. It's not uncommon.

Also when you consider product life cycle planning - a company is not likely to spend money fixing a 'fault' that only affects a relatively small percentage of users toward the end of ifs life cycle. You do a calculation of cost analysis - and if the costs outstrip the potential income, why do it? That's a business decision.

Genuine question - what percentage fail rate would you consider makes a product unreliable? 30%? 50%?


Everyone is entitled to an *opinion* about a product - just please let's keep them as opinion and not purport it as fact, eh? :-)

Gassage

My question would be did Line 6 ever have the plot?

monquixote

I don't think owning a particular product necessary helps you in having an opinion on it's reliability.

It's a sample size of one that is liable to bias you in the direction of your own experience.

impmann

monquixote said:

I don't think owning a particular product necessary helps you in having an opinion on it's reliability.

It's a sample size of one that is liable to bias you in the direction of your own experience.

As opposed to a sample size of "none"...

digitalscream

impmann said:

As opposed to a sample size of "none"...

Most of the people who compile statistics on any product don't actually own the product in question. On the other hand, it's perfectly possible to make a determination on how well-designed something is for reliability by actually looking at it - the switches on Line6 gear, for example, as describe earlier in this thread. They're practically designed to fail, just not necessarily within the warranty period; this is borne out by repeated anecdotal reports of their failure (even if, as you say, 50% of them can be discarded...that still leaves an awful lot).

impmann

This is true. But they take the data from source, not from internet waffle... 

And look at it in percentage terms... hypothetical figures time... sell 20,000 pieces, and 20 people on line bitch about an issue.... do you need me to do the calculation? 200 people is still a small percentage. Yes its a lot of people but realistically, does it warrant a redesign? 99% of folks have not had an issue... 

You need to look past the "noise" generated by the vocal few and look for the facts. Facts are hard to find on forums/the internet, due to some people vociferously complaining about the same issue time and time again. Example: ICBM's fault on his DL4, which by his own admission he's never heard of before or since... but he still talks about it. Its a one-off event. Statistically not relevant (sorry fella, but that's maths).

There are some valid opinions on this thread. But that's as far as they run...

carlos

I had a Pod XT and that was fine but limited, certainly not up to the standard of current amp emulators. Menu and interface were fine just not good enough in terms of sounds.

Then I had a JM4 which has the same switches as the DL4 and I found it very poorly built. Switches so clunky it was very hard to get a good loop going.

ICBM

impmann said:

Example: ICBM's fault on his DL4, which by his own admission he's never heard of before or since... but he still talks about it. Its a one-off event. Statistically not relevant (sorry fella, but that's maths).

I agree. But it really did make a big impression on me, to the point I could no longer trust the unit and thus replaced it quickly. I've always been interested to hear if anyone else has had the same problem - and although not identical there do appear to have been a couple of others which had software glitches of a sort, also at gigs and also making noises which couldn't be shut off.

Tiny numbers, I know - but you won't get a picture of how relevant/irrelevant this sort of issue is unless people do report it. It's up to you how you interpret it.

impmann said:

Genuine question - what percentage fail rate would you consider makes a product unreliable? 30%? 50%? 

I would say a 10% failure rate per year would be pretty bad for modern electronics.

I have no idea if the DL-4 would be anything like that bad - I doubt it. Or pretty much any of the other gear I know of which is considered 'unreliable'. (There might be a few amps which get close to that, although I can't be sure.)

Even then, that would mean that 90% of users have no trouble at all, and don't see what the problem is. That doesn't mean the gear is good though...

monquixote

impmann said:

monquixote said:

I don't think owning a particular product necessary helps you in having an opinion on it's reliability.

It's a sample size of one that is liable to bias you in the direction of your own experience.

As opposed to a sample size of "none"...

They aren't the only two options. In the case of the product I was referring to earlier I was basing an opinion on: Someone who owns a shop telling me they had a higher than usual (and he thought acceptable) return rate 

Two different repairers telling me they see a lot of them. 

Two well respected pedal modifiers (Keeley, JHS) citing them as flawed designs and hence in need of modification. 

Someone who is a professional designer of audio electronics telling me that they considered the switches used in the series of products to be bad quality (I expect the MTBF of the components are known). 

Several rig rundown videos where tech have said they've had to rewire them to keep them roadworthy. 

I'd place more weight behind any of those things than one instance of a product that I happened to own working or not and taken together it makes me fairly confident there is likely to be some kind of genuine problem.