Have Line6 lost the plot?

Lev

I did some searching around for multi FX options today and started looking at what Line6 have on offer. I just realized that the POD HD300 and HD400 have been discontinued and only the HD500X is available. 

At the entry/lower end the only option is the Amplifi FX100. This seems crazy to me, I can kind of understand the Amplifi amps appeal with the wide range speakers offering a high quality audio system for listening to music, watching movies and playing guitar but what is the unique selling point of the FX system?

As I understand it, it's based off the POD X3 modelling, you need an iOS device to do the editing (only 15% of smartphone sales in 2013) and you can't even use it as an audio interface (it has a USB port that doesn't seem to do anything). On top of that it's double the price of a Zoom G3. 

Am I missing something here or is this a terrible product pitched to a relatively small market of guitarists with iphones?

John_P

Lev said:

I did some searching around for multi FX options today and started looking at what Line6 have on offer. I just realized that the POD HD300 and HD400 have been discontinued and only the HD500X is available. 

At the entry/lower end the only option is the Amplifi FX100. This seems crazy to me, I can kind of understand the Amplifi amps appeal with the wide range speakers offering a high quality audio system for listening to music, watching movies and playing guitar but what is the unique selling point of the FX system?

As I understand it, it's based off the POD X3 modelling, you need an iOS device to do the editing (only 15% of smartphone sales in 2013) and you can't even use it as an audio interface (it has a USB port that doesn't seem to do anything). On top of that it's double the price of a Zoom G3. 

Am I missing something here or is this a terrible product pitched to a relatively small market of guitarists with iphones?

I think you're right - it's going to struggle to sell in large numbers (or at all)  with those specs.

I can see the logic in them phasing out the other products if they are about to bring out something cool with the Yamaha link though.

RaymondLin

Not directed at Line 6 specifically but when I was (kind of still am) buying pedals for my board, when choosing the modulations there are many that offers that iPhone connectivity option.  Namely TC with their Toneprint and also Eventide too (I know you can use that single knob), and as much as I am tech savvy, I actually am a Apple convert, I have practically all their stuff lol I don't want these computer aspects to my pedals.  I want knobs, I want to twist and it do something and not use my iPhone or iPad to change settings or edit settings.

Guitarist are a strange bunch, stuck in an era that is is void of sillicon chips and I actually wholeheartedly prefer it too ! (/with my iPhone starring at me in the face).

 

ICBM

I would suspect Yamaha are running down the old product line on purpose.

not_the_dj

I've not followed them closely, but since the take over by Yamaha in late 2013 there doesn't seem to have been much coming out from them, and they are getting left behind by the competition. 

Maybe they're working on something that'll blow the market apart...

fretmeister

Interesting times, certainly!

With Yamaha's size and economies of scale it is entirely plausible that they could do a Fractal beating unit for half the price.

Which would be nice!

Drew_TNBD

Yes. They have.

Paulo

Their Tonecore pedals were a bit strange. You could swap the module out in order to change between a comp or flanger for instance. You had to undo a few screws so it wasn't an instant thing and totally impractical. I have the comp pedal and I've seen the modules going cheap but what's the point?

Lev

RaymondLin said:

Not directed at Line 6 specifically but when I was (kind of still am) buying pedals for my board, when choosing the modulations there are many that offers that iPhone connectivity option.  Namely TC with their Toneprint and also Eventide too (I know you can use that single knob), and as much as I am tech savvy, I actually am a Apple convert, I have practically all their stuff lol I don't want these computer aspects to my pedals.  I want knobs, I want to twist and it do something and not use my iPhone or iPad to change settings or edit settings.

Guitarist are a strange bunch, stuck in an era that is is void of sillicon chips and I actually wholeheartedly prefer it too ! (/with my iPhone starring at me in the face).

 

I actually don't mind so much the technology integration but surely it needs to be cross platform implementation with android and windows. It's also essential that you can do 'all' the editing on the device itself even if it's more cumbersome than using a phone. When I spend money on a unit I want it to stand the test of time and not become useless to me as soon as a phone manufacturer changes their OS version.

EricTheWeary

The nice man at GuitarGuitar said the amplifi stuff was selling as quick as they could get them in; peeps who hang around guitar fora may not he typical buyers.
Presumably Yamaha will either be relaunching Line 6 ( winter NAMM) having first culled the product line or will kill it off in favour of new Yammy products.

RaymondLin

Lev said:

RaymondLin said:

Not directed at Line 6 specifically but when I was (kind of still am) buying pedals for my board, when choosing the modulations there are many that offers that iPhone connectivity option.  Namely TC with their Toneprint and also Eventide too (I know you can use that single knob), and as much as I am tech savvy, I actually am a Apple convert, I have practically all their stuff lol I don't want these computer aspects to my pedals.  I want knobs, I want to twist and it do something and not use my iPhone or iPad to change settings or edit settings.

Guitarist are a strange bunch, stuck in an era that is is void of sillicon chips and I actually wholeheartedly prefer it too ! (/with my iPhone starring at me in the face).

 

I actually don't mind so much the technology integration but surely it needs to be cross platform implementation with android and windows. It's also essential that you can do 'all' the editing on the device itself even if it's more cumbersome than using a phone. When I spend money on a unit I want it to stand the test of time and not become useless to me as soon as a phone manufacturer changes their OS version.

The last point is the crux of it.  I don't want my pedals to be reliant on an external controller.  I want the ability to change settings without access to a phone or computer.  That flexibility is critical.

As to the phone OS to operate the pedal, I wholeheartedly agree it needs to be cross platform.  Can you imagine having to buy your next phone with your pedals as one of the limitation of the brand you are choosing?  Or imagine you signed up to a new contract for a phone only realise afterwards that it won't work with your pedals?  It is just ridiculous.  Or having to keep an old phone around and keep it with you just to change settings.  It shouldn't be like that.

The pedalboard should be a self contained, self sufficent entity.  I can't imagine needing a phone to change the settings on my DSLR so why would I want a phone to change settings on my musical instruments?

digitalscream

Indeed. I can live with having a single computer kicking around which is dedicated to music stuff and has to stick on a specific OS version (although thankfully that's much less of an issue with Windows than it is with OS X), because I tend to keep my music stuff on a separate machine anyway. Requiring the same of a phone is utterly ludicrous.

monquixote

Line6 baffle me. 

The POD was the biggest guitar innovation of the last 20 years, they were the leaders of the pack and they've chucked it away.

It appears that they were content to leave the high end of the market to others and rake in the money pumping out Spiders to every beginner and Rehearsal room in the country. 

Because they don't offer a decent upgrade path as you outgrow your Spider they are seen as an amp you use until you can afford to get something else.

You can say there is no money in the higher end, but what about the halo effect of a big star using a brand

Compare  http://www.fractalaudio.com/artists.php to http://line6.com/artists/ the latter isn't even linked from the top menu of the site and most of the decent pros they do have are endourcing the wireless system not the modelling kit. From the lead they had Line6 should be the guys getting Vai and Petrucci to use their kit. 

When Fractal release some lower priced kit they are going to clean up.

Every rig rundown you saw used to have a Line6 DL4 on it and everyone would tell you they loved it, but the switches were a piece of shit and yet it's never been updated in over 10 years and steadily everyone now has a Strymon Timeline. As they are ex Line6 guys you can easily imagine Strymon having pitched the Timeline to L6 management and being told "Nah we don't need to invest in new pro kit, look how many Spiders we are selling"

Perhaps the dumbest thing they did IMO were the DT25/DT50. By all accounts a good product, but as soon as a modelling company make the upgrade path a valve product you are essentially saying "Our modelling tech isn't good enough for a professional product" 

Bod

I've had every Pod unit since the original bean.  I've also owned a Variax, a Toneport, and a Flextone III.  They've gone from a company that were exciting and innovative, to one that makes toys.

I have the HD500, and it's soon to be on my for sale list.  The HD product line ditched some of the functionality from earlier revisions - dry recording via USB, the ability to output a cab-effected version of your signal via XLR, Pod Farm being some of them.  I think many people, myself included, expected updates to add this functionality but it didn't happen.  They've definitely lost the plot.

Even the latest versions of the Variax still have the old models from the original 500/700 line, nothing was updated in terms of the accuracy of the models.

Fretwired

monquixote said:

Line6 baffle me. 

The POD was the biggest guitar innovation of the last 20 years, they were the leaders of the pack and they've chucked it away.

It appears that they were content to leave the high end of the market to others and rake in the money pumping out Spiders to every beginner and Rehearsal room in the country. 

They didn't throw it all away. Line 6 is a small company with limited resources. The main development team left and started what is now Strymon and the big boys like Yamaha, Zoom and Roland entered the market. They ended up with too many products and didn't make much money. There's also not much cash in the high end - Axe-fx sells well but again they don't make much money [I got this from some senior product guys at Line 6 and Roland]. The bad news for the Axe-fx guys and firms like Roland is the fact that Yamaha now owns Line 6.

Yamaha bought ailing Steinberg a few years ago and have completely transformed the company. I bet they do the same to Line 6.

Fretwired

Lev said:

I did some searching around for multi FX options today and started looking at what Line6 have on offer. I just realized that the POD HD300 and HD400 have been discontinued and only the HD500X is available. 

I never saw the point of the HD300 or HD400. If you just want effects then get an M13.

UnclePsychosis

Line6 have some good products but I don't think they have a very strong brand. Personally I think yamaha would be better off letting line6 "die" and keep the technology under the yamaha name.

monquixote

Fretwired said:

They didn't throw it all away. Line 6 is a small company with limited resources. The main development team left and started what is now Strymon and the big boys like Yamaha, Zoom and Roland entered the market. They ended up with too many products and didn't make much money. There's also not much cash in the high end - Axe-fx sells well but again they don't make much money [I got this from some senior product guys at Line 6 and Roland]. The bad news for the Axe-fx guys and firms like Roland is the fact that Yamaha now owns Line 6.

Yamaha bought ailing Steinberg a few years ago and have completely transformed the company. I bet they do the same to Line 6.

They may not be massive compared to Yamaha, but the sheer number of Spiders out there suggest they can't be that small. 

It was their choice to develop and release a range of Guitars, Keyboards, Mixers, PA Speakers, and Wireless systems whilst completely ignoring making any improvements to the products that made their name. That's pretty much textbook throwing it away/mismanagement in my book.

 

High end may not make much money, but high end gets you celebrity endorsements and respect which sells product, and in the world of DSP this years high end is next years mid range.

It's a fairly classic move in the tech industry that when a product is selling well the management refuse to invest in the next gen. You have to wonder why the brains all left and set up Strymon. All those great products could be Line6 if they really wanted them to be.

I have nothing, but respect for Yamaha and I'm sure they will do great things with the brand.

Fretwired

UnclePsychosis said:

Line6 have some good products but I don't think they have a very strong brand. Personally I think yamaha would be better off letting line6 "die" and keep the technology under the yamaha name.

Line 6 has the best selling amp range in the world .. they have a very strong brand, especially with bedroom-based shredders, guitarists who record at home and pros who use their pedals, guitars, wireless and PA. Yamaha will keep the Line 6 name and build on it - expect links with Steinberg's product line and Yamaha's audio division.

Drew_TNBD

I just don't see the Amplifire selling. I'm highly skeptical of the words fed to Eric by the nice GuitarGuitar man. I've not seen a single person using one of these, and our old singer bought one and sent it back a day later saying it was a piece of shit. He bought a Cube instead as far as I recall.

Lev

Fretwired said:

Lev said:

I did some searching around for multi FX options today and started looking at what Line6 have on offer. I just realized that the POD HD300 and HD400 have been discontinued and only the HD500X is available. 

I never saw the point of the HD300 or HD400. If you just want effects then get an M13.

I guess they gave an entry into the HD amp and FX modelling at a lower price point. I had an M13 and although a great unit I found it difficult to get a satisfactory tone running into any amp modelling gear for home recording. Sounded great with an amp in a live situation though but not a low cost unit either. 

My main point is that the unit that has replaced them at that price point has older modelling technology, is tied to an IOS device and doesn't allow you to record over USB. I don't get why a company would launch a product that can only be used with a thrid party device that doesn't even have the largest market share. Talk about limiting potential sales.