Have Line6 lost the plot?

hugbot

The line 6 echo ark had a wonderful tape algorithm that's better than the DL4s that they've never used in anything since.

Heartfeltdawn

monquixote said:

Every rig rundown you saw used to have a Line6 DL4 on it and everyone would tell you they loved it, but the switches were a piece of shit and yet it's never been updated in over 10 years and steadily everyone now has a Strymon Timeline. As they are ex Line6 guys you can easily imagine Strymon having pitched the Timeline to L6 management and being told "Nah we don't need to invest in new pro kit, look how many Spiders we are selling"

Fuck Strymon Everyone most certainly does not have a Timeline. If they're so ruddy good, why are they so readily available in the ads section here and on Ebay? Oh yes, because people buy them, realise they've spunked a wedge on this thing that doesn't offer them sonic nirvana, and so they flog it. Always a good secondhand market for Timelines. 

TC have definitely become a major player in the delay market but don't forget that the drop in DL4's on pedalboards will be mirrored by the rise of M9 and M13 pedals. 

"Compare them to TC who in the same time have released the Nova Delay refined it for pros with the iB Nova."

No chance! The iB Nova wasn't refined for pros. It was fixing the fucking atrocious tone sucking of the original Nova when it was bypassed. As a non-tone snob, even I heard it. The iB was a great way of charging a bit more to have the flaws of the original fixed. 

not_the_dj

Heartfeltdawn said:

No chance! The iB Nova wasn't refined for pros. It was fixing the fucking atrocious tone sucking of the original Nova when it was bypassed. As a non-tone snob, even I heard it. The iB was a great way of charging a bit more to have the flaws of the original fixed. 

Yet strangly you can still buy a new standard Nova Delay, but not the iB Modified version. I really don't get that at all.

(anyway I sold my iB Nova when I got an Alter Ego X4).

Ianpdq

As far as I am concerned Line 6 lost the plot when they stop supporting the Spider Jam and I have not brought anything of theirs since

richardhomer

I had a DL4 which went 'pop' about two and a half years in. It had never been gigged and had seen little home use.

I took it back to the dealer, who tried it with another power supply and concluded it had died.

His view was that even though it was out of warranty, it was obvious from its external condition that it had had little use and should not have failed so soon.

He returned it with an e-mail to that effect (no pun intended!) and got it repaired FOC.

I attribute this outcome far more to an excellent dealer than Line 6 - though to be fair they turned it round quickly.

In the longer term, I'd lost trust in it and sold it on.

impmann

Interesting discussion about DL4.

Does anyone have any actual figures to back up this idea that the switches "always" fail and that "everyone" replaces the tact switches with clunking spst aftermarket ones?

Does anyone have actual returns data to support their arguments - or is this, as I suspect, more internet "wisdom" based on some apocryphal tales...?

monquixote

impmann said:

Interesting discussion about DL4.

Does anyone have any actual figures to back up this idea that the switches "always" fail and that "everyone" replaces the tact switches with clunking spst aftermarket ones?

Does anyone have actual returns data to support their arguments - or is this, as I suspect, more internet "wisdom" based on some apocryphal tales...?

ICBM is a professional kit repairer so if he sees a lot of something it's probably unreliable. 

No one is suggesting they "always fail" just that they fail more than they should.

stickyfiddle

The switches on my DL4 were ok but it died mid-soundcheck. Technically it didn't quite die, but started hissing almost as loud as the guitar signal whenever I wasn't playing. I know they've sold lots of them, but you hear of a huge number of them failing one way or another.

Despite that, the thing that annoys me is just that they haven't updated it in 15 years, or cut the price, despite gigantic leaps in tech in the same time - they haven't even made it work on a standard 9V DC input, despite the fact it can do so with a $5 adapter.

meltedbuzzbox

monquixote said:

impmann said:

Interesting discussion about DL4.

Does anyone have any actual figures to back up this idea that the switches "always" fail and that "everyone" replaces the tact switches with clunking spst aftermarket ones?

Does anyone have actual returns data to support their arguments - or is this, as I suspect, more internet "wisdom" based on some apocryphal tales...?

ICBM is a professional kit repairer so if he sees a lot of something it's probably unreliable. 

No one is suggesting they "always fail" just that they fail more than they should.

ahhh so one guy says so on the internet and its true...

I guess I best sell all my offsets too, they have a reputation for being problematic on the net too

monquixote

meltedbuzzbox said:

ahhh so one guy says so on the internet and its true...

I guess I best sell all my offsets too, they have a reputation for being problematic on the net too

I think enough people who have reason to know what they are talking about consider it to be a problem to suggest that the balance of probability is that it's a problem.

That OK?

impmann

Er... Ok.

Perhaps what we need is someone who works or even better runs the repair dept at Line6 to be able to give 'facts' on this...

meltedbuzzbox

Boss pedals break, EHX pedals break, dunlop pedals, marshall pedals all break. 

I am sure we have all had the above break in one way or another. I just dont like guess work conclusions. You are riding the DL4 for reliability issues yet you have no real knowledge of the volume that have failed. There is no mention of the FM4, the MM4 and the other various models that all share the same switched ans case design. 

Then as pointed out above many people use the m series pedals that effectively have DL4 pedals inside of them. Many people are using these despite you berating the lack of tone quality and moderisation. 

I am allowed to contest unfounded facts right? 

Dont take it personal. I will disagree with anyone that confuses opinion with fact. 

monquixote

If they were available (and allowed to talk about it) it would be great, but I think it's still valid to talk about stuff like this without access to official stats.

For example we don't have access to Gibson and PRS return rates, but you hear enough noise from people about shady Gibsons and so little about PRS that it's not totally unfounded to speculate that Gibson might have a QC problem and that PRS probably don't

stickyfiddle

meltedbuzzbox said:

Boss pedals break, EHX pedals break, dunlop pedals, marshall pedals all break. 

I am sure we have all had the above break in one way or another. I just dont like guess work conclusions. You are riding the DL4 for reliability issues yet you have no real knowledge of the volume that have failed. There is no mention of the FM4, the MM4 and the other various models that all share the same switched ans case design. 

Then as pointed out above many people use the m series pedals that effectively have DL4 pedals inside of them. Many people are using these despite you berating the lack of tone quality and moderisation. 

I am allowed to contest unfounded facts right? 

Dont take it personal. I will disagree with anyone that confuses opinion with fact. 

FWIW I had a switch die on an AM4 too....

As for the M series, I have an M9 and it's ok, but compared with the Eventide Timefactor it replaced the delays are shite.

monquixote

meltedbuzzbox said:

Boss pedals break, EHX pedals break, dunlop pedals, marshall pedals all break. 

I am sure we have all had the above break in one way or another. I just dont like guess work conclusions. You are riding the DL4 for reliability issues yet you have no real knowledge of the volume that have failed. There is no mention of the FM4, the MM4 and the other various models that all share the same switched ans case design. 

Then as pointed out above many people use the m series pedals that effectively have DL4 pedals inside of them. Many people are using these despite you berating the lack of tone quality and moderisation. 

I am allowed to contest unfounded facts right? 

Dont take it personal. I will disagree with anyone that confuses opinion with fact. 

I'm not asserting that other brands don't break. 

I'm not presenting it as fact, just that there is more evidence for my assertion than for the counter position.

I do have some evidence that a disproportionate number of Line6 switches compared to other brands and I believe the same is true of the other pedals in the series and also the M stuff. 

I'm not taking it personally I quite enjoy the odd internet argument.

EricTheWeary

I have certainly read about Line 6 products, especially DL4s ( I'm guessing they are a more popular product than the other 4 models at a pro level is all), having their switches changed in pro rig run downs. Just a thing that stuck in my head as it seemed unusual. Maybe with something like a faulty Boss pedal they are just cheap enough to replace the whole pedal. I have seen small pedal companies offering upgrades on them as they think they are common faults (JHS for example when I googled it). This may just be a collective paranoia ( and JHS making money out of the gullible) but Line 6's own figures would only be warranty returns and wouldn't be an absolute answer.
For a digital/ hi tech product it is surprising that they haven't been replaced/ upgraded. I doubt if many people would pay full price for a ten year old design tv or laptop or digital camera.

Edit: 14 year old design

impmann

Price of DL4 had gone down since launch - in real terms (ie vs inflation) and physically since launch... Rrp was £249 10 years ago...

monquixote

http://www.jhspedals.com/products/mod-shop/line-6-dl4-mods/

From the JHS page on the DL4

Switch Replacement

We repair a LARGE number of Line 6 modelers with failed switches. This is due to the very poor quality and function of the stock switch. We replace these prone-to-fault switches with HEAVY duty fluid momentary replacements. You will notice a smoother push as well as more reliable switching action. Make your pedal road worthy and never worry about your DL4 again!

Also 

As of September 2013, we are no longer modifying USED Line 6 "4 series" pedals (DL4, MM4, etc).  Due to the failure rate of the 4 Series we are only modifying NEW 4 Series pedals. 

I get that they might be biased as they are trying to sell you an upgrade, but it seems like enough evidence to think it might be a real problem.

impmann

Great 'evidence' - a company that supply a product that 'improves' another is hardly going to say they never go wrong...

Ask yourself a question - seeing as there have been 10s of thousands of DL4s sold, even a really low %age failure rate would manifest itself as quite a high number... Therefore is it *quite* the issue of reliability that is being banded about?

monquixote

Conversely what possible reason would they have for offering mods on a product that doesn't have flaws.

It's one example there are enough other ones that you will be able to dig up if you search around. Keeley also used to mod them, but don't any more.

I'm satisfied that I'm not being unreasonable in what I'm asserting and I'm not inclined to spend more time on it.