Have Line6 lost the plot?

Fretwired

jeztone2 said:

Anyone remember when Gibson bought Trace Elliot?

This could go either way

Not really. Trace wasn't a big brand and Gibson only wanted the acoustic amps. The guitar amps were ditched. Gibson was badly run in those days and itself was in financial trouble.

Yamaha is a whole different proposition. It would be interesting to see a POD/THR crossover. Line 6 also missed a trick by not revamping the Spider amps to compete with Roland's Cube range. I suspect that will be high on Yamaha's wish list as it would be an early win.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

Trace wasn't a big brand and Gibson only wanted the acoustic amps. The guitar amps were ditched.

No they weren't. The Velocette guitar amps were redesigned slightly to cure some of the reliability problems and re-branded as 'Gibson Goldtone'. *Some* of the guitar amps were ditched, yes - along with the least reliable bass amps - but the majority of the bass amps were continued. The acoustic amps were a fairly small part of the range.

Trace was a big brand - I think the second largest UK amp manufacturer after Marshall at the time, and a globally known bass amp brand. Even then I'm not sure Gibson knew what they were buying - there's some indication that they didn't quite get what they expected after the sale, involving shenanigans with Orange - and contrary to popular myth that they 'ruined' Trace, they actually saved it (or at least the brand) - the amps had been getting progressively worse for quite some time before that and given the amount of warranty returns they were probably in trouble. I saw a lot of this first-hand while working for a Trace dealer.

meltedbuzzbox

monquixote said:

Every rig rundown you saw used to have a Line6 DL4 on it and everyone would tell you they loved it, but the switches were a piece of shit and yet it's never been updated in over 10 years and steadily everyone now has a Strymon Timeline.

Have you used one over an extended period of time?

I gigged mine for years 2 to 3 times a week and never had an issue with the switches. 

I might be missing something here but do you really need more than the 15 or so models of delay on offer?

No negative comments about a lack of a DD8 from boss? 

The only negative I have on the DL4 is its size, but it has to be that big to accommodate the 4 switch layout. 

At £400 what does the Strymon really offer over flashback/alter ego and the DL4? I'm looking at a lot of dials I dont think I would need. Its the same as the TC electronics nova series. Great it has a million dials and buttons but fuck me I just want to press it and have it work, I dont want to go all NASA space station on it and read a manual.

Drew_TNBD

The DL4 is a killer pedal, but it has been superseded by the Flashback X4 imho. They're basically the same in all respects, but the Flashback has more modern digital conversion stages and sounds cleaner because of the analog dry thru. The DL4 needed an update ages ago.

I changed the switches on mine - hardwired some SPST switches in place of those crappy actuators that always used to break. I used my DL4 live for 2-3 years solid, and it was a 2nd hand unit that had already had some years behind it.

monquixote

meltedbuzzbox said:

monquixote said:

Every rig rundown you saw used to have a Line6 DL4 on it and everyone would tell you they loved it, but the switches were a piece of shit and yet it's never been updated in over 10 years and steadily everyone now has a Strymon Timeline.

Have you used one over an extended period of time?

I gigged mine for years 2 to 3 times a week and never had an issue with the switches. 

I might be missing something here but do you really need more than the 15 or so models of delay on offer?

No negative comments about a lack of a DD8 from boss? 

The only negative I have on the DL4 is its size, but it has to be that big to accommodate the 4 switch layout. 

At £400 what does the Strymon really offer over flashback/alter ego and the DL4? I'm looking at a lot of dials I dont think I would need. Its the same as the TC electronics nova series. Great it has a million dials and buttons but fuck me I just want to press it and have it work, I dont want to go all NASA space station on it and read a manual.

I've never owned one, but that's irrelevant because every roadie on every rig rundown says and any tech will tell you that the switches on Line6 stuff break a lot. Which matters to touring bands.

If professionals have to dismantle and rewire your product before they will use it that is a problem.

They don't have to make the DL4 more complex, just improve the design and sound quality to reflect advances in tech. In ten years they could have improved the DACs and ADCs, improved the bit depth and sample rate of the processing, added analogue dry through etc without changing any of the models if they had wanted.

meltedbuzzbox

I now have an alter ego on my board (the 1 button variety) because it does all the sounds but doesn't up pedal space like Isreal eats up Palestine. My band mate uses my dl4 and I have to say I prefer the sound of the DL4 so much more. I find it easier to tweak as well.

But that is personal preference, I am sure we are all different.

ICBM

My DL-4 f***ed up in a way which was nothing to do with the switches - a software glitch which left it totally unresponsive and playing the loop from the previous song. Luckily it was over the intro to a song and not in the middle of one so I eventually stopped it before it caused real chaos, but the band were not amused. I never trusted it after that.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

Trace wasn't a big brand and Gibson only wanted the acoustic amps. The guitar amps were ditched.

No they weren't. The Velocette guitar amps were redesigned slightly to cure some of the reliability problems and re-branded as 'Gibson Goldtone'. *Some* of the guitar amps were ditched, yes - along with the least reliable bass amps - but the majority of the bass amps were continued. The acoustic amps were a fairly small part of the range.

Trace didn't make those amps. They were made by Gibson in the USA. Trace were mainly known as a bass amp manufacturer and had a niche in acoustic amp arena. Gibson canned the bass amps, closed the UK factory and fired all the staff. The only thing that survived with a TA badge was the acoustic amps which were made in the USA.

Drew_TNBD

ICBM said:

My DL-4 f***ed up in a way which was nothing to do with the switches - a software glitch which left it totally unresponsive and playing the loop from the previous song. Luckily it was over the intro to a song and not in the middle of one so I eventually stopped it before it caused real chaos, but the band were not amused. I never trusted it after that.

Yeah you've cracked out this one before

I find it very strange. Never heard of it happening and never had that problem once with my pedal, nor has our other guitarist who know owns said pedal - complete with my ropey wiring!

I have had my Boss DD7's act weirdly though. On powering them up, sometimes they wouldn't recognise that an external tap tempo was plugged in, meaning I had to pull them off the board and re-insert the jack. Bit annoying, but only happened once or twice. Talk about odd!

I don't really like the looper on the Flashback X4. It relies too much on holding down footswitches to do important functions, like clearing the loop for instance.

monquixote

I'm not knocking the DL4 there is a reason they were so popular. I tried to buy one when they first came out and they were sold out everywhere for about a year. 

Sound quality is entirely subjective, but things like reliability and noise floor aren't. They also could have redesigned it to use a standard DC adaptor. 

Compare them to TC who in the same time have released the Nova Delay refined it for pros with the iB Nova. Released the Flashback, released a more pro version with the Flashback X4 and released a more retro version with the Alter Ego. Now when I look at the pedal board pages on the "Show your board" threads it's nearly all TC, and Strymon for digital delays when a few years back it would probably have been all about the DL4. 

ICBM

Drew_fx said:

I find it very strange. Never heard of it happening and never had that problem once with my pedal, nor has our other guitarist who know owns said pedal - complete with my ropey wiring!

I've never heard of it happening to anyone else either, but I guarantee that it did and I have three witnesses (plus an unknown number in the audience who probably didn't know what was happening) who will back me up...

If it had happened in the middle of a song it would have been either hilarious, or nightmarish, or possibly both .

Drew_fx said:
I have had my Boss DD7's act weirdly though. On powering them up, sometimes they wouldn't recognise that an external tap tempo was plugged in, meaning I had to pull them off the board and re-insert the jack. Bit annoying, but only happened once or twice. Talk about odd!

Exactly. Software does weird things sometimes...

I have heard of a *lot* of other problems with the DL-4 though, and seen a few - not all switch-related. Basically I just don't trust them.

timmysoft

I've grown to love line6 products, I love my m5, it does all I need until I invest £100's into a new pedal board. I've used pods and flextones loads over the last decade and always found good tones and a very user friendly interface. I've not tried the new amplifi fx100 yet but I do like the concept, in the rehearsal room I think it'll be really handy as a kind of heads up display.

meltedbuzzbox

monquixote said:

meltedbuzzbox said:

monquixote said:

Every rig rundown you saw used to have a Line6 DL4 on it and everyone would tell you they loved it, but the switches were a piece of shit and yet it's never been updated in over 10 years and steadily everyone now has a Strymon Timeline.

Have you used one over an extended period of time?

I gigged mine for years 2 to 3 times a week and never had an issue with the switches. 

I might be missing something here but do you really need more than the 15 or so models of delay on offer?

No negative comments about a lack of a DD8 from boss? 

The only negative I have on the DL4 is its size, but it has to be that big to accommodate the 4 switch layout. 

At £400 what does the Strymon really offer over flashback/alter ego and the DL4? I'm looking at a lot of dials I dont think I would need. Its the same as the TC electronics nova series. Great it has a million dials and buttons but fuck me I just want to press it and have it work, I dont want to go all NASA space station on it and read a manual.

I've never owned one, but that's irrelevant because every roadie on every rig rundown says and any tech will tell you that the switches on Line6 stuff break a lot. Which matters to touring bands.

If professionals have to dismantle and rewire your product before they will use it that is a problem.

They don't have to make the DL4 more complex, just improve the design and sound quality to reflect advances in tech. In ten years they could have improved the DACs and ADCs, improved the bit depth and sample rate of the processing, added analogue dry through etc without changing any of the models if they had wanted.

I think you are somewhat over exaggerating that. There is a lot of "unreliable stuff" used by professionals.

If a roadie has to rewire something after every use that says more to be about the skill of the roadie rather than the quality of a product.

And talking about reliable equipment as an example have you seen Brian May's wall of AC30s?

The psu I completely agree with but the sound improvements of modern kit. Sound quality as well, you haven't owned one.

Why does everyone crave 60s gear then? Everyone wants tube amps and "vintage" guitars. Klon pedals, original run Boss pedals, tube screamers etc. 

Everyone has Tc electronic delays at present yes, and before that it was DL4s, then DD7, DD5, DD3. EHX Memory man etc etc

There are always fads amongst guitar players. I bought a few TC electronic pedals based on popularity and all have been replaced by better sounding units. The strymons will become yesterdays news in a few years and replaced by another overpriced box that has better technology than the last whatever.

I am willing to bet some money that most people have their alter egos/flashbacks/DL4s etc set to Deluxe memory man, which begs the question, why dont we all just use the EHX pedal...

EricTheWeary

My M9 had a weird glitch, basically got stuck in a high pitched loop that I couldn't get rid of. I mean proper loud squall. And, yes, in the middle of a gig. Unplugging it and plugging it back in didn't work. Obviously had to not use it then. Next time I came to use it was fine.
And, yes, pretty much every pro rig run down with a DL4 they have fixed/ replaced the switches.
The M series units were supposed to have regular updates but they stopped.

Jez6345789

I think I have commented a few times on Line 6,s demise. I think they spread themselves way to thin getting into stuff like pa sound interfaces keyboards at one time, rather than concentrating on what they did best and what was at the core of their business which was tech based sound modelling. Aligning themselves with Bogner and James Tyler did nothing for them other move them out of the good value for money that the mass market of muso's would buy into. My old 300 variax with a Pod is still a great way of getting a vast range of styles and sounds into a recording. Yes in isolation the modelling does not sound totally authentic but in a mix nobody ever says oh that's a variax yuk. Learning more from what's written here it seems a big managment screw up to not migrate their code base for the DSP they were using to something newer. These companies do not just drop a chip line without a more powerful replacement and as Pods evolved it became clear Line 6 were not keeping up with new DSP as things like the X3 were just two pods bridged from what I could make out. If the dev team left to found Strymon that would seem another screw up if your reliant on a core development team as your biggest asset then you need to keep them motivated locked in and working to develop the next gen of tech. Hence most tech companies offer good engineers stock option and lock ins. Hopefully Yamaha will bring them back to reality might even see a modelling 399.00 playable guitar on the market. A must for every home studio.

dindude

I see parallels of the Line 6 / Strymon thing with Marshall. They also don't seem to have recovered from losing people to setting up Blackstar and both Line 6 and Marshall have seemed to have lost their R&D mojo, instead relying on repackaging old tech or old ideas.

monquixote

meltedbuzzbox said:

I think you are somewhat over exaggerating that. There is a lot of "unreliable stuff" used by professionals.

If a roadie has to rewire something after every use that says more to be about the skill of the roadie rather than the quality of a product.

And talking about reliable equipment as an example have you seen Brian May's wall of AC30s?

The psu I completely agree with but the sound improvements of modern kit. Sound quality as well, you haven't owned one.

Why does everyone crave 60s gear then? Everyone wants tube amps and "vintage" guitars. Klon pedals, original run Boss pedals, tube screamers etc. 

Everyone has Tc electronic delays at present yes, and before that it was DL4s, then DD7, DD5, DD3. EHX Memory man etc etc

There are always fads amongst guitar players. I bought a few TC electronic pedals based on popularity and all have been replaced by better sounding units. The strymons will become yesterdays news in a few years and replaced by another overpriced box that has better technology than the last whatever.

I am willing to bet some money that most people have their alter egos/flashbacks/DL4s etc set to Deluxe memory man, which begs the question, why dont we all just use the EHX pedal...

They don't need to rewire it after every use just replace the jacks and switches once because the ones they use don't last. I'm sure for a tech it isn't that hard of a job, but you shouldn't need to do that. Boss pedals are cheap and reliable. You don't even need to announce it. I believe Blackstar changed the PSU and switches on the HT range without making any kind of announcement. The fact that Line6 don't to me either shows that they don't give much of a shit about their customers or they are really broke and have no R&D budget.

Look at Visual Sound. They continually improve the physical characteristics of their pedals without altering the core sound. That's a company who respect their customers and have a commitment to engineering excellence. 

The AC30 thing is not really a fair comparison as they blow up because they aren't being used as the manufacturer intended and there have been various attempts to bring out new AC30s with more modern features.

The thing about the DL4 is that if they produced a new one they don't need to alter the nature of the sounds at all if they don't want to that's just the algorithm. The magic of digital kit is that you implement the same algorithm you get the same sound regardless if you use a different DSP. It's just maths. 

A revised DL4 could have analogue dry through, low noise DAC/ADC, 9v DC power, 24 bit processing (I assume the original is 16 bit), more robust jacks and switches and longer battery life and still look and sound broadly the same. There is no question that a revision of that nature would make for a better and more competitive product. 

Regarding the DMM they are the best delay pedal ever IMO (My old band had a song called Memory Man in tribute), but they are massive, expensive and unreliable. Again pros use them because they have techs, but for us gigging regular joes you have to really love them to put up with the trouble that they cause.

ICBM

monquixote said:

Again pros use them because they have techs, but for us gigging regular joes you have to really love them to put up with the trouble that they cause.

+1. Pros can have multiple backups and someone to switch them over - remotely even, they don't have to be on stage - in the middle of a song if they need to.

The average gigging player without the money or space to do that needs 100% reliability, or as close to it as possible - that's why I ditched my DL-4 even though I really liked a couple of the things it did. Most average players don't want to spend a fair amount of money and invalidate the warranty to have a tech go through and bulletproof something that should have been made properly in the first place either. Even though I can do that for myself I still choose my gigging gear for reliability first and tone second, not the other way round.

guitarcookie1

I'm liking my M9, bought to replace my MM4 as it added delays/reverbs to the same sized unit. 

Updates would be nice but does it need them?

EricTheWeary

I think with May's AC30's not only does he have a bunch of them ( and what average Joe would take a spare AC30 on a gig) but his are basically pro rebuilt anyway, he isn't relying on how it rolled off the production line.