Stage volume - why do sound guys hate it?

RocknRollDave

sjo89 said:

RocknRollDave said:

Personally, I love a quiet stage and being able to hear myself clearly in my in-ears, so that my vocals stand a chance of being pitched properly. 
I've been at (pro) gigs where the soundman has clearly struggled to balance everything against an over-loud guitar amp. (Gary Moore, for example).

Key word being "over-loud" - my issue is always when my guitar amp is really not loud at all and im being asked to turn it down beyond the point whereby i can even hear it. And then they proceed to refuse to give me enough of it in the monitors.

I would say the issue, then, isn't the low stage volume per se, it's a poor monitor mix. 
The one good thing about being a self-contained band (I play weddings) is that I have full control of my own monitor mix and can make sure there is enough guitar in it!

(The big downside, however, of doing the mix myself is that I can't be out front AND onstage at the same time, and so it's hard to know what needs a little tweak mid-set.)

Handsome_Chris

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Here's a review of the festival we played:
https://theprogressiveaspect.net/blog/2021/09/19/portals-festival/?fbclid=IwAR2jv-62SOPfH2XPWJwvchazT_VLcUOftkc-tAi4hQCRi6YGA0f7gh7Gseg

A few mentions of a couple of bands being too loud there. 

"Driven by a big bass sound (which I particularly liked) the twin guitars offered complementing sounds".  I told you that your bass player is what holds it all together.

Cirrus

Yeah his skin would make a great leather pouch

rico

I remember seeing a band in a very small venue in London and the guitarist swanned in with two 100w non master volume Marshall’s and it was as expected, hilariously, stupidly loud. He cleared the floor and most punters went outside. Plonker. He was an arrogant fellow as well, so I went to a different pub. 

Reverend

fastonebaz said:

I bet this stage wasn't quiet. Imagine playing that one,  it'd be awesome. 

They complained about how quiet it was, and struggled to hear properly on stage. 

grappagreen

This is an interesting thread... especially given I'm running our PA for first gig on Saturday after a long break

I did a gig in Camden a few years ago which was probably the worst gig sound wise I've ever had. House engineer had a quick word and said 'we run a very quiet stage here guys' and as we sound checked he asked me to turn my amp down to pretty much zero. He came over as a complete twat in terms of his communication/interaction. I complied as I'm a collaborative type of guy (don't want to piss the sound guy off)  expecting some guitars in the monitors. You can guess the rest and I pretty much played the gig blind. I went out to listen to the band on after us and couldn't believe the SPL he was pushing FOH. It was so painful I put plugs in and then gave up eventually.

The amount of gigs I've been too that have been ruined by just being tooooo f'kin loud for the space or completely inappropriate for the audience/venue..

Si

sjo89

grappagreen said:

This is an interesting thread... especially given I'm running our PA for first gig on Saturday after a long break

I did a gig in Camden a few years ago which was probably the worst gig sound wise I've ever had. House engineer had a quick word and said 'we run a very quiet stage here guys' and as we sound checked he asked me to turn my amp down to pretty much zero. He came over as a complete twat in terms of his communication/interaction. I complied as I'm a collaborative type of guy (don't want to piss the sound guy off)  expecting some guitars in the monitors. You can guess the rest and I pretty much played the gig blind. I went out to listen to the band on after us and couldn't believe the SPL he was pushing FOH. It was so painful I put plugs in and then gave up eventually.

The amount of gigs I've been too that have been ruined by just being tooooo f'kin loud for the space or completely inappropriate for the audience/venue..

Si

What I dont get is theres dozens of budding sound guys in every city who would kill for gigs and yet the venues seem hell bent on keeping the ones they have even when so many people tell them how shit they are. 

WiresDreamDisasters

sjo89 said:

grappagreen said:

This is an interesting thread... especially given I'm running our PA for first gig on Saturday after a long break

I did a gig in Camden a few years ago which was probably the worst gig sound wise I've ever had. House engineer had a quick word and said 'we run a very quiet stage here guys' and as we sound checked he asked me to turn my amp down to pretty much zero. He came over as a complete twat in terms of his communication/interaction. I complied as I'm a collaborative type of guy (don't want to piss the sound guy off)  expecting some guitars in the monitors. You can guess the rest and I pretty much played the gig blind. I went out to listen to the band on after us and couldn't believe the SPL he was pushing FOH. It was so painful I put plugs in and then gave up eventually.

The amount of gigs I've been too that have been ruined by just being tooooo f'kin loud for the space or completely inappropriate for the audience/venue..

Si

What I dont get is theres dozens of budding sound guys in every city who would kill for gigs and yet the venues seem hell bent on keeping the ones they have even when so many people tell them how shit they are. 

It's the same logic you get when people say "the audience doesn't notice"

They think you're full of shit and they know best. That's it really.

robinbowes

WiresDreamDisasters said:

It's the same logic you get when people say "the audience doesn't notice"

The thing is, *most* of the audience probably doesn't notice.

A percentage of the audience *will* notice, that percentage being directly proportional to the shitiness of the sound.

WiresDreamDisasters

robinbowes said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

It's the same logic you get when people say "the audience doesn't notice"

The thing is, *most* of the audience probably doesn't notice.

A percentage of the audience *will* notice, that percentage being directly proportional to the shitiness of the sound.

They do notice. They notice everything. They're humans. They just don't use the same language as us musicians and engineers. It's up to us to be able to parse what they say - but most of us don't even listen.

robinbowes

WiresDreamDisasters said:

robinbowes said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

It's the same logic you get when people say "the audience doesn't notice"

The thing is, *most* of the audience probably doesn't notice.

A percentage of the audience *will* notice, that percentage being directly proportional to the shitiness of the sound.

They do notice. They notice everything. They're humans. They just don't use the same language as us musicians and engineers. It's up to us to be able to parse what they say - but most of us don't even listen.

I've seen a whole crowd not notice that FoH has gone off, and the only sound being that coming from the backline and monitors on stage. They just kept dancing!

WiresDreamDisasters

robinbowes said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

robinbowes said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

It's the same logic you get when people say "the audience doesn't notice"

The thing is, *most* of the audience probably doesn't notice.

A percentage of the audience *will* notice, that percentage being directly proportional to the shitiness of the sound.

They do notice. They notice everything. They're humans. They just don't use the same language as us musicians and engineers. It's up to us to be able to parse what they say - but most of us don't even listen.

I've seen a whole crowd not notice that FoH has gone off, and the only sound being that coming from the backline and monitors on stage. They just kept dancing!

That doesn't mean they didn't notice.

Sounds like more justification for removing the soundman and FOH altogether!!!

robinbowes

WiresDreamDisasters said:

robinbowes said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

robinbowes said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

It's the same logic you get when people say "the audience doesn't notice"

The thing is, *most* of the audience probably doesn't notice.

A percentage of the audience *will* notice, that percentage being directly proportional to the shitiness of the sound.

They do notice. They notice everything. They're humans. They just don't use the same language as us musicians and engineers. It's up to us to be able to parse what they say - but most of us don't even listen.

I've seen a whole crowd not notice that FoH has gone off, and the only sound being that coming from the backline and monitors on stage. They just kept dancing!

That doesn't mean they didn't notice.

Sounds like more justification for removing the soundman and FOH altogether!!!

There was no sound man - it was the band's own bodged together PA, powered mixers, old cabs, not surprising it died!

WiresDreamDisasters

robinbowes said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

robinbowes said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

robinbowes said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

It's the same logic you get when people say "the audience doesn't notice"

The thing is, *most* of the audience probably doesn't notice.

A percentage of the audience *will* notice, that percentage being directly proportional to the shitiness of the sound.

They do notice. They notice everything. They're humans. They just don't use the same language as us musicians and engineers. It's up to us to be able to parse what they say - but most of us don't even listen.

I've seen a whole crowd not notice that FoH has gone off, and the only sound being that coming from the backline and monitors on stage. They just kept dancing!

That doesn't mean they didn't notice.

Sounds like more justification for removing the soundman and FOH altogether!!!

There was no sound man - it was the band's own bodged together PA, powered mixers, old cabs, not surprising it died!

If in doubt, kill the bassist!

robinbowes

WiresDreamDisasters said:

robinbowes said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

robinbowes said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

robinbowes said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

It's the same logic you get when people say "the audience doesn't notice"

The thing is, *most* of the audience probably doesn't notice.

A percentage of the audience *will* notice, that percentage being directly proportional to the shitiness of the sound.

They do notice. They notice everything. They're humans. They just don't use the same language as us musicians and engineers. It's up to us to be able to parse what they say - but most of us don't even listen.

I've seen a whole crowd not notice that FoH has gone off, and the only sound being that coming from the backline and monitors on stage. They just kept dancing!

That doesn't mean they didn't notice.

Sounds like more justification for removing the soundman and FOH altogether!!!

There was no sound man - it was the band's own bodged together PA, powered mixers, old cabs, not surprising it died!

If in doubt, kill the bassist!

Probably the only thing not in the PA!

R.

Roland

It’s easy to imagine that the FoH sound actually improved when the PA went down

sjo89

So last night my band had an interesting first time experience. Unbeknownst to us (and none of the other bands too) until we got to the venue, everything except the vocals was gonna be unmiced. Would've been nice to know in advance so we could've brought appropriate amps - we had to pretty much max them all to be audible against the drummer.

Needless to say, the sound on stage was loud and crap, but weirdly, out front it was actually surprisingly good. The PA was forward of the stage and probably about 2m further forward of the amps. As only singers were going through them the vocals were crystal clear and way louder (probably too loud) in the mix than usual (not a bad thing live as usually they're swamped). The kick and possibly snare definitely needed micing, but it was nice to not have the PA just washed out with overly loud cymbals. Also, the small bass amp alone was sufficient. For once the mix wasn't full of sub harmonics and low end rumble from too much bass, as is often the case.

It all got me thinking that in essence, most of my "theories" regarding stage volume and sound guys are true. You can have loud guitars on stage, so long as they're matching the drums and also angled away from crowd (both ours were on amp stands angled toward our heads). The PA can serve to balance and reinforce the sound that's there, not simply completely alter it.

I also wondered if any PA setups consist of some of the speakers being dedicated solely to the vocals, to give them more clarity? Almost like a wet/dry rig does with guitar?

robinbowes

sjo89 said:

I also wondered if any PA setups consist of some of the speakers being dedicated solely to the vocals, to give them more clarity? Almost like a wet/dry rig does with guitar?

This is how I do it, sort of.

I mic everything, but bring the vocals up first then only bring anything else into the PA if it's needed.

R.