The Doctor Who thread

Philly_Q · May 28

darthed1981 said:

Hurling_Fruitmig said:

I didn't mention wokeness, just that the primary thing the show has lost is a huge portion of its fanbase, even relative to the Whittaker era...
In pre-social media times that used to happen naturally as people 'grew up', rather than hanging on to their childhood into middle age and telling anyone who'll listen that things aren't what they used to be

That's a really interesting point.

Arguably that killed off 90s Star Trek, all the people who were kids when TNG first aired were fully fledged adults when you got around to Enterprise - so most people just "grew out of it" - in service of getting ahead, getting laid, getting on etc etc.

Now, in a more accepting, and probably as a result better world (though people know I like sci-fi stuff and definitely it still puts me on the outside of the circle) where people can be more themselves, there are negatives as well.

Most bluntly... look at us... we are a bunch of middle-aged males arguing about a kids TV show, we are only a few steps above going off Paw Patrol when they brought in Everest (smug cow, who does she think she is).

It was a bit like all the arguing online over the Last Jedi, you'd think someone had gone through Shakespeare with a black marker writing "NO" over all the famous bits, instead of making a three-hour long toy catalogue some didn't care for.

You get a wiz, but it took 123 pages to get to this point.

Now, I'm not trying to take the Victor Mature high ground. I watch - and listen to - all sorts of juvenile nonsense which was never "aimed" at my age group. Our grandfathers would have all thought we were mad even watching TV in middle-age, never mind arguing about it. In the 1960s nobody thought anyone over 40 would ever listen to pop music. (But on the other hand I can't see the appeal of sitting in a pub every evening nursing a pint of warm bitter, smelling of Woodbines and filling in Pools coupons.)

But having said all that, there are some things which I really don't think are aimed at "us" and it surprises me that people are so invested in them and take them so seriously. And for me personally, Doctor Who is one of those things. I mean, I lost interest shortly after Peter Davison took over from Tom Baker, and only started watching again out of curiosity when they relaunched it with Eccleston many years later. Since then I've watched a few episodes with Tennant, Smith and Capaldi but honestly, I don't give a shit about any of it and it baffles me a little that anyone does.

That's just a personal viewpoint, I'm not saying you're all wrong. It's really no more ridiculous or childish than getting all worked up about 22 people kicking a ball around a pitch. We all need something to get away from the boredom of daily life.

darthed1981 · May 28

Philly_Q said:
That's just a personal viewpoint, I'm not saying you're all wrong. It's really no more ridiculous or childish than getting all worked up about 22 people kicking a ball around a pitch. We all need something to get away from the boredom of daily life.

Oh I agree...

So... which one of us is starting "The Paw Patrol Thread"?

Offset · May 28

darthed1981 said:

Philly_Q said:
That's just a personal viewpoint, I'm not saying you're all wrong. It's really no more ridiculous or childish than getting all worked up about 22 people kicking a ball around a pitch. We all need something to get away from the boredom of daily life.

Oh I agree...

So... which one of us is starting "The Paw Patrol Thread"?

I think you know the answer to that :-)

Philly_Q · May 28

I have honestly never seen an episode of Paw Patrol.

jasonbone75 · May 28

Philly_Q said:

I have honestly never seen an episode of Paw Patrol.

you haven't lived sir!!

digitalscream · May 28

darthed1981 said:

Most bluntly... look at us... we are a bunch of middle-aged males arguing about a kids TV show, we are only a few steps above going off Paw Patrol when they brought in Everest (smug cow, who does she think she is).

It was a bit like all the arguing online over the Last Jedi, you'd think someone had gone through Shakespeare with a black marker writing "NO" over all the famous bits, instead of making a three-hour long toy catalogue some didn't care for.

You keep dragging me back in...

I have to say, this argument really does get up my nose. It's the kind of thing - generally - condescendingly said by people who aren't fans so that they can regard themselves as more mature and better than others. (EDIT: Not suggesting that you're not a fan, you clearly are - I'm referring to most people who use that argument)

I'm 47. Yes, I'm into Doctor Who (or was), both Marvel and DC comics, Star Wars (or was), Indiana Jones (or was), and both sci-fi and fantasy from Lord of the Rings (which, lest we forget, started with a kids' story) all the way down to David Eddings.

Doctor Who may have started as a kids' show, but 40-50 years in...that's not what it had become. With themes like genocide, trauma and loss in every series...I really don't see how you could call it "a kids TV show". This is because, like all the others, it grew with the audience and gave them what they wanted.

All of those things are franchises with a surface level appeal and a deep, rich lore full of very adult stories and concepts for those who want to delve into it - and they're not just for kids, but they can appeal to kids. There is nothing wrong with being genuine fans who dive into that and appreciate it; the problem comes when all that lore that we're invested in (both financially and in terms of time and storytelling) gets chucked in the bin because the latest owner thinks this will be the time the failed strategy works, and we get insulted and told to piss off when we take umbrage at the franchise that's now a poor photocopy of its former self.

Where does it stop? Football - kids' game. Computer games - grow up. In a band - haven't you grown out of that yet, why aren't you looking after the kids? etc etc.

The idea that, as middle-aged blokes, we should forget about all the fun stuff we enjoy is an idea from half a century ago (or more).

Offset · May 28

^^ Indeed. It stopped being a kid's show with the Ecclestone reboot. Kids could enjoy it, yeah - but DW was evolving to both keep original fans who'd grown up and attract new young fans, like my daughter. She's now 22, didn't like the Whittaker era and based on what she's seen won't be watching much more Gatwa unless by accident.

"Hey! Who turned out the lights?" - kid's stuff? I don't think so as it scared the crap out of me! And Blink?!

digitalscream · May 28

Offset said:

^^ Indeed. It stopped being a kid's show with the Ecclestone reboot. Kids could enjoy it, yeah - but DW was evolving to both keep original fans who'd grown up and attract new young fans, like my daughter. She's now 22, didn't like the Whittaker era and based on what she's seen won't be watching much more Gatwa unless by accident.

"Hey! Who turned out the lights?" - kid's stuff? I don't think so as it scared the crap out of me! And Blink?!

I think it stopped being that long before the reboot. Even McCoy's era was decidedly not just for kids, particularly given the ending.

Offset · May 28

^^ You're probably right but I was most decidedly not a fan of the McCoy era (with the possible exception of The Curse Of Fenric which, although very flawed, was nevertheless good fun).

Rabs · May 28

darthed1981 · May 28

digitalscream said:
You keep dragging me back in...

I have to say, this argument really does get up my nose. It's the kind of thing - generally - condescendingly said by people who aren't fans so that they can regard themselves as more mature and better than others. (EDIT: Not suggesting that you're not a fan, you clearly are - I'm referring to most people who use that argument)

I'm 47. Yes, I'm into Doctor Who (or was), both Marvel and DC comics, Star Wars (or was), Indiana Jones (or was), and both sci-fi and fantasy from Lord of the Rings (which, lest we forget, started with a kids' story) all the way down to David Eddings.

Doctor Who may have started as a kids' show, but 40-50 years in...that's not what it had become. With themes like genocide, trauma and loss in every series...I really don't see how you could call it "a kids TV show". This is because, like all the others, it grew with the audience and gave them what they wanted.

All of those things are franchises with a surface level appeal and a deep, rich lore full of very adult stories and concepts for those who want to delve into it - and they're not just for kids, but they can appeal to kids. There is nothing wrong with being genuine fans who dive into that and appreciate it; the problem comes when all that lore that we're invested in (both financially and in terms of time and storytelling) gets chucked in the bin because the latest owner thinks this will be the time the failed strategy works, and we get insulted and told to piss off when we take umbrage at the franchise that's now a poor photocopy of its former self.

Where does it stop? Football - kids' game. Computer games - grow up. In a band - haven't you grown out of that yet, why aren't you looking after the kids? etc etc.

The idea that, as middle-aged blokes, we should forget about all the fun stuff we enjoy is an idea from half a century ago (or more).

Oh I don't disagree with that side of it, I'm 43 and still very much a sci-fi fan and just like yourself, I wouldn't tell anyone they were wasting their time when something makes them happy, life is far too short, even though football bores me silly these days, if people love it, more power to them.

I also waste huge amounts of money buying vinyl copies of music I can hear from Spotify for a tenner a month, and I own 20 guitars and play like Dave Lister. I'm ripe for mockery and in no way mocking, simply acknowledging that side of the debate exists. Similar to my coda to you before... I love the new series (honestly, really) and you clearly don't, but that's cool

I go back to the post I was replying to and the idea I find interesting - the idea that nu-Who has lost it's, if not kids, then very much "family" audience it picked up in 2005 as they grew up. I think there is some truth in that. Sure the hardcore are still here (debating where and if it all went wrong..) but the casual fans have all gone.

Maybe Sylvester McCoy was "darker" but that's really a very different show to the new one launched in 2005, and in 2005 they worked very hard to keep it relatable.

You had Rose's family, who meant you got a lot of perspectives to the Doctor's world, just as you got a lot of perspectives from the viewers. It was genuinely funny. It had genuinely kid friendly monsters (the Slitheen) and pop culture references (The Weakest Link) and it also had... genuinely touching brilliant pieces of sci-fi, like Father's Day and Dalek. Father's Day was what got me as a hardcore fan of the new show, it was nu-Who's "City on the Edge of Forever".

I don't feel the same way, or as strongly, about changes to lore or canon because I'd rather give writers a free hand to tell stories

I agree before you say it - they can go hand in hand, but I remember in a Star Wars discussion you gave over the real reason a lot of old-time SW fans hate the new stuff so much - the first thing Disney did was say all the 30yrs of novels and comic books that SW fans had filled their boots with and say "sorry chaps - all not canon". I get why that racked people off (though I also get why Disney did it - they don't want to give a lot of money to old comic book writers - just like they keep screwing over old Marvel writers).

However, in the Trek fan community there are still people who complain that Star Trek Discovery and Strange New Worlds look far too good and should look "older" than the 1960s shot original series - I don't get that, it's nuts.

Was the same fuss when the Phantom Menace came out though... I almost just quoted your bit about ruining lore for fans with "You are Tim Bisley, and ICM £5" - with this video

digitalscream · May 28

darthed1981 said:

I go back to the post I was replying to and the idea I find interesting - the idea that nu-Who has lost it's, if not kids, then very much "family" audience it picked up in 2005 as they grew up. I think there is some truth in that. Sure the hardcore are still here (debating where and if it all went wrong..) but the casual fans have all gone.

I think an awful lot of the hardcore have gone, too.

The great shows do grow with their audience - and they adapt as they get older, because it's those fans who'll always keep coming back, and then introduce it to the next generation who can watch it from the beginning and get the same experience as they get older. Trying to reset it back to a kids' show just means you instantly lose the very people who justified bringing it back in the first place.

That's fine when there's a 16 year gap...not so much in the middle of an active run.

Ultimately, it's the thing a lot of film and TV makers seem to completely miss with franchises these days - there's absolutely nothing wrong with giving the fans what they want. In fact, it's absolutely necessary to keep a franchise alive, but they treat "fan service" as a dirty concept. When you start messing with that, and treating fans like they're wrong and beneath you...you get what happened to the MCU, and to Star Wars. And, in fact, to Lord of the Rings with Rings of Power (we don't talk about The Hobbit). And...Doctor Who, whose overnight ratings are now lower than Come Dine With Me.

I hate that, because it means that the show I loved is heading for cancellation, and that sucks.

There's a right way to do mess with it, of course - the object lesson is Battlestar Galactica. Starbuck's gender-swap, and to a lesser extent the humanoid Cylons, had everybody up in arms and swearing not to watch it. However, the combination of phenomenal writing and serious acting talent turned every last one of those people around.

darthed1981 · May 28

digitalscream said:

darthed1981 said:

I go back to the post I was replying to and the idea I find interesting - the idea that nu-Who has lost it's, if not kids, then very much "family" audience it picked up in 2005 as they grew up. I think there is some truth in that. Sure the hardcore are still here (debating where and if it all went wrong..) but the casual fans have all gone.

I think an awful lot of the hardcore have gone, too.

I hate that, because it means that the show I loved is heading for cancellation, and that sucks.

I'm not sure overnights mean anything any more - so far the figures for the new series - bearing in mind in that lots of people still won't have watched it are a pretty reasonable but will keep going up - the seven day figures are around 3-4 million - that's massively higher than most things on terrestrial TV.

Check out this BARB data for the episode on the 18th - Boom -

https://www.thinkbox.tv/training-and-tools/barb-data/top-programmes-report

14th highest viewed program of the week... and the highest rated drama show that isn't a soap - and a 27.6% audience share - that's pretty good - and we know already that it's the lowest rated episode of the series - 73 Yards had better overnight figures, maybe good word of mouth?

Disney will decide to keep money in or not based on how many people watch it globally - not in the UK - and we will never know how it does there except if Disney decide to go for a third series - but I'm not downhearted.

digitalscream said:
Ultimately, it's the thing a lot of film and TV makers seem to completely miss with franchises these days - there's absolutely nothing wrong with giving the fans what they want. In fact, it's absolutely
necessary to keep a franchise alive, but they treat "fan service" as a dirty concept. When you start messing with that, and treating fans like they're wrong and beneath you...you get what happened to the MCU, and to Star Wars. And, in fact, to Lord of the Rings with Rings of Power (we don't talk about The Hobbit). And...Doctor Who,

I think fan service CAN be a brilliant thing... for example Picard Season 3.

But that's positive... what I want to see is the TNG crew saving the universe from the bridge of the Enterprise D, including Data... that's what the creative team wanted, it's what the fans wanted.

With Doctor Who... what is it they want? I've heard all these...

Bring back Moffat and RTD - big check mark there.
A dynamic more like Tennant and Rose? - as above
Not too dark and impenetrable like Capaldi years - check

What do you want from the show, specifically?

digitalscream · May 28

darthed1981 said:

With Doctor Who... what is it they want? I've heard all these...

Bring back Moffat and RTD - big check mark there.
A dynamic more like Tennant and Rose? - as above
Not too dark and impenetrable like Capaldi years - check

What do you want from the show, specifically?

It's a fair question.

Moffat and RTD - wasn't enough to bring them back, it was to bring them back writing in the spirit that they did before
More like 10 and Rose - Nah, I wasn't actually into that.
Not too dark - I actually liked a lot of Capaldi's stuff, in fact it's the moments of The Doctor's darkness which made the show great IMO

Think...9's vengeful wrath when it came to the Daleks, 10's rage when the PM shoots down the aliens as they're running away and then ends her government, 12's anger combined with compassion in the "scale model of war" speech. That's all continuity of a core part of the character, which just wasn't there with 13 and doesn't seem to be there with 14 either.

Then there's the fundamental rules of the show - for example, the Doctor and companions were immune to changes in the timeline (which is written into canon), but then they suddenly abandoned that with the whole "mavity" thing and the butterfly incident. The problem with that is...it renders everything that's happened in previous episodes (and seasons!) moot. In fact, it kills any chance of continuity anywhere, because as soon as they travel to any time prior to a previous episode, that episode may or may not have happened at all because the characters' memories and entire history have now changed. Sure, it was a contrivance, but it's a necessary contrivance in a show about time travel.

And, if they just include it a couple of times for a cheap gag, then it's just shitty writing.

So...that's what I want. Consistency and continuity - not necessarily of events, but of the characters and the rules of the show's universe.

Heartfeltdawn · May 28

darthed1981 said:

What do you want from the show, specifically?

Someone who can write stories like Robert Holmes.

#sadoldWhovian

slacker · May 28

I got dragged along to radio 1 s big weekend on Saturday. Its not for me, although I loved the Dinner Party.they had a massive doctor who poster facing the entrance area. My son whose 36 and doesn't watch doctor who had his picture taken with a mate in front of the TARDIS. He said to me afterwards that I missed it. I said I didn't miss it I'm just not interested any more. Its not for me.

I do watch it and fortunately there's only 4 more episodes.i sat through the chibnall era waiting for it to get better. I'm done waiting. I watch it with my wife who loves it and reserve the right to look at my phone.

Doctor who always had polarising episodes. I hated love and monster, fathers day, fear her idiot box , midnight etc. But that's a list of some people's favourites. It's the john peel effect.

For the capaldi era I can remember the plots but not the titles. For whittacker I liked flux and the multi doctor one the rest is gone like a bad dream.

The problem for me is the inconsistency within episodes. I will be enjoying it and something will take me out of the episode. Spaces babies was bonkers good but they had to shout space babies all the time and have a sledge hammer body positivity. 73 yards starring millie gibson on her own was awesome until the ncuti gatwa turned up with a jarring performance.

Just sort the writing out and sort the doctor out, he's stepped on something nasty twice in 7 days.the doctor isn't incompetent.

darthed1981 · May 28

Taking into account everyone's posts above, I still really love the new series of Doctor Who.

I'm not as harsh on the JW era as some, when they tried they often succeeded, I loved the lone cyberman he was genuinely nasty.

I have found things to love in every series since the show came back, though the Chibnall era tested me to the limit at times.

But the second RTD came back, with the daft Meep episode, it felt like back in the old days of 2005-8 for me again.

Ncuti Gatwa is a very fine actor, and Millie Gibson (despite the fact give her longer hair and glasses she still looks 19 not 40) is a very fine actress, and RTD is one of TVs best writers.

I'm looking forward to finding the truth about Ruby and whoever put her at the church (and whether Brian Mays Mrs really is Susan...)

digitalscream · May 28

darthed1981 said:

Taking into account everyone's posts above, I still really love the new series of Doctor Who.

We're not trying to make you hate the show!

(we are right, though

)

darthed1981 · May 29

digitalscream said:
(we are right, though )

But... there's always a Twist at the end...

Offset · May 29

^^ Yes yes, all very lovely, great dancing, choreography etc etc etc.

But WTF does it have to do with Doctor Who?!

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