The Doctor Who thread

english_bob

Headphones said:

Thought it was quite reasonable.

If there genuinely was a "race" point there I rather missed it.

I read that more as he was blocked, repeatedly; largely as he was trying to say unhappy things which she didn't want to hear.  At the end, a  pretty, happy, familiar face will always seem more aluring... and there was no reference against which she could judge, beyond one of her peers saying "come with us" in a language that was soothing and familiar.

It's not *not* that he was saying unwelcome things, but Lindy was more receptive to hearing them from Ruby. Maybe because it was a second, more subtle attempt, but also because she looks like she'd fit with the friend group. If there aren't other plausible reasons for blocking the Doctor then you blow the plot twist five minutes in to the episode.

Lots of little things look different when you think of them in the context of Lindy being a racist, like blaming the doctor and not Ruby for what's happening (because of course), or taking so long to realise that Ruby and the Doctor are in the same room (because why would you).

My initial reaction was to assume she meant both of them were "not one of us", but it's clearly directed at the Doctor ("you, sir, are not one of us").

I think it's meant to be a shock to us- we're all used to having science fiction shows use all sorts of things as ciphers for racism that putting plain old garden variety white supremacists up on the screen is a surprise.

darthed1981

Headphones said:

If there genuinely was a "race" point there I rather missed it.

suspiciousminds said:

Tbh, if there was a “race” point being made it was completely over my head.

Well, given I was expecting a chorus of "erghhh...Disney... making race points when all I want is racist caricatures of the Chinese like in the Tom Baker days, and blokes in a rat costume"... this is a nice refrain...

Headphones

I guess if you look hard enough you can always find "something".

Is there really a need to do more than enjoy a little light entertainment?

darthed1981

Headphones said:

I guess if you look hard enough you can always find "something".

Is there really a need to do more than enjoy a little light entertainment?

No need old chap.

I didn't need to look very hard to see Lindy as an unpleasant racist.

But how you enjoy the show is up to you.

darthed1981

theatreanchor said:

Philly_Q said:

I have honestly never seen an episode of Paw Patrol.

I have. It’s better than Dr Who.

When they do an episode where one of the Pups loses it, and rips that fucking chicken to shreds, THEN it will be as good as Doctor Who.

WezV

Headphones said:

I guess if you look hard enough you can always find "something".

Is there really a need to do more than enjoy a little light entertainment?

RTD has said he wanted to see how long it would take people to notice this was an all white cast in an inherently racist society.

It starts with her blocking the doctor instantly, but is followed by lots of comments she makes about him to other characters.  All this before the ending where she would rather die than accept his help.

I don't think this is a case of people looking hard to see racism, but a case of many people overlooking it when it's staring them in the face.   I missed it too, actually asked my wife if it was down to classism or racism as it all seemed out of the blue at the end.... but on reflection it was obvious all along.


I'd also challenge some people's assumptions about the doctors response to all this.  This is a person who has no experience of human racism before that point.   It takes him a while to click too,  and he is upset once he does

His usual "trust me, I'm the doctor" approach just doesn't work

Headphones

Maybe that's his intent.

But to say it's inherently racist to not see racism everywhere is a pretty absurd premise.

I saw pretty abhorent behaviour, but who's to insist that it's racist or that it's not about sitting in an echo chamber, disregarding any message that doesn't fit your views?

Equally, when people you know are going one way, with espoused certainty they'll be safe, why would you go into a box with a strange man, who says it's a space ship?

If the doctor were played by Jon Pertwee, would it have been any less of a tale, would the behaviour have needed to be different to work?

If this is RTD creating a morality trap, to show us that we're all evil, it's pretty rubbish when the alternatives work so well!

darthed1981

Headphones said:

If this is RTD creating a morality trap, to show us that we're all evil, it's pretty rubbish when the alternatives work so well!

I don't think RTD is like that - he isn't fundamentally a misanthrope.

He created a character who was unveiled as pretty evil throughout the episode.

I love that it's generated so much discussion though, it's like the good old days.

WezV

Headphones said:

Maybe that's his intent.

But to say it's inherently racist to not see racism everywhere is a pretty absurd premise.

I don't think anyone said that.

theatreanchor

darthed1981 said:

theatreanchor said:

Philly_Q said:

I have honestly never seen an episode of Paw Patrol.

I have. It’s better than Dr Who.

When they do an episode where one of the Pups loses it, and rips that fucking chicken to shreds, THEN it will be as good as Doctor Who.

I like it. But I think that will make it better than 98% of tv tbh. 

english_bob

Headphones said:

Maybe that's his intent.

But to say it's inherently racist to not see racism everywhere is a pretty absurd premise.

I saw pretty abhorent behaviour, but who's to insist that it's racist or that it's not about sitting in an echo chamber, disregarding any message that doesn't fit your views?

It can be both. It was definitely the latter, even if you don't see it being about the former.

Equally, when people you know are going one way, with espoused certainty they'll be safe, why would you go into a box with a strange man, who says it's a space ship?

Why would you? The Doctor is only offering because- not unreasonably- he doesn't think a bunch of people who can't walk in a straight line without help from Facebook will survive in the wilderness just because one of them looks a bit outdoorsy.

Why would you refuse? Well, Lindy makes it quite clear it's because the Doctor is black. She addresses her whole speech to him and not Ruby, tells him about his "duty" to save the lives of his betters, accuses him of "voodoo" and so on. None of her fellow survivors object- they appear to agree with her.

If the doctor were played by Jon Pertwee, would it have been any less of a tale, would the behaviour have needed to be different to work?

Does it still work if the Finetime inhabitants are just spoilt, entitled rich kids who think they know everything but not racists? Sure. But they were racists.

If this is RTD creating a morality trap, to show us that we're all evil, it's pretty rubbish when the alternatives work so well!

If the existence of racism, or the fact that you didn't spot the all-white casting (I didn't...) makes you feel evil, that's no indication of RTD's intentions. I think the story would still work without the racism element, but I've never been very interested in counterfactuals in TV shows- I'd rather think about the story they did tell, not some other version of it they might have told.

slacker

Once again a good entertaining story with bits that brought me out of the story. Also again ncuti was out acted by millie gibson. Only 3 more to go.

Headphones

Blimey, you guys really are intent in seeing evil everywhere!

Good job killing off teh pop star matches your mantra... Oh..  wait...

WezV

Headphones said:

Blimey, you guys really are intent in seeing evil everywhere!

We saw it where it was intended to be seen.  RTD has confirmed that it was the point of the episode, and it was intended to be a slow subtle reveal.

Although I am sure the thread will carry on with half of posts saying it's just a kids show not to be taken seriously  

darthed1981

WezV said:

Although I am sure the thread will carry on with half of posts saying it's just a kids show not to be taken seriously  

Give kids some credit, just because a show is aimed at families doesn't mean it needs be dumb or lack heft.

RTD wrote a series shown on CBBC earlier in his career called "Century Falls"... and it's just shit fucking scary, ropey CBBC cast notwithstanding.

Not to mention "Tom's Midnight Garden", "The Moonstone" etc...

..and of course Paw Patrol.

Philly_Q

darthed1981 said:

WezV said:

Although I am sure the thread will carry on with half of posts saying it's just a kids show not to be taken seriously  

Give kids some credit, just because a show is aimed at families doesn't mean it needs be dumb or lack heft.

RTD wrote a series shown on CBBC earlier in his career called "Century Falls"... and it's just shit fucking scary, ropey CBBC cast notwithstanding.

Not to mention "Tom's Midnight Garden", "The Moonstone" etc...

..and of course Paw Patrol.

Have you seen the Famous Five films produced for the BBC by Nicolas Winding Refn?  They're really good.  They do "lack heft" but they're very entertaining.

slacker

I still have nightmares about the thunderbirds crocodile episode.
And don't start me on Donald pleasance being eaten by a white corpuscle. I don't like egg white to this day.

 

darthed1981

slacker said:

I still have nightmares about the thunderbirds crocodile episode.

I love the work-shy bad guy in that episode...  what's his name .. Culp or something?

darthed1981

Philly_Q said:

Have you seen the Famous Five films produced for the BBC by Nicolas Winding Refn?  They're really good.  They do "lack heft" but they're very entertaining.

I have not - though I did read the books as a kid. Edit: ooh - theyre on iplayer

Have you seen "Century Falls" @Philly_Q ??  Would be right up your alley.  Very hard to get hold of these days I used to have a DVD I foolishly sold.

Arghh - even the credits are scary - 

english_bob

Philly_Q said:

Have you seen the Famous Five films produced for the BBC by Nicolas Winding Refn?  They're really good.  They do "lack heft" but they're very entertaining.

I haven't sat down and watched a whole one, but my 7yo daughter who really enjoys the books has watched the first one. When Jack Gleeson turned up as a baddie I knew there'd be some top scenery chewing and moustache twirling villainy if nothing else.