The Football Thread.

LionAquaLooper

TimmyO said:

I'm one of those annoying football fans that watch the occasional international, but I've been struck by how pants the punditry and commentary is (well, on the BBC coverage anyway) - particularly compared to how well informed the equivalent Rugby pundits I'm more used to watching seem to be.

Shearer has to be the 'best' example:

Shearer: their centre forward can keep dropping short all day for me, it reduces the threat
Also Shearer: when he dropped short it makes space for their wingers and that's where the threat came from

Shearer: England need to press up further
Also Shearer: when you press up the field you risk creating space in behind and that's what's happened there 

Shearer ALL the rest of the time: what's great about this Spain side is all the moovin' an' passin', moovin' an' passin'

You put this into words better than I ever could.  I watched the match on ITV last night because I cannot stand listening to Shearer pre match, at HT, and post match.  Everyone picks on Dixon and I do too, but Shearer is as pointless useless with his "analyses".  Loves to highlight things that players SHOULD have done.  Like that's of any use to anyone when they've already happened. 

guitars4you

LionAquaLooper said:

TimmyO said:

I'm one of those annoying football fans that watch the occasional international, but I've been struck by how pants the punditry and commentary is (well, on the BBC coverage anyway) - particularly compared to how well informed the equivalent Rugby pundits I'm more used to watching seem to be.

Shearer has to be the 'best' example:

Shearer: their centre forward can keep dropping short all day for me, it reduces the threat
Also Shearer: when he dropped short it makes space for their wingers and that's where the threat came from

Shearer: England need to press up further
Also Shearer: when you press up the field you risk creating space in behind and that's what's happened there 

Shearer ALL the rest of the time: what's great about this Spain side is all the moovin' an' passin', moovin' an' passin'

You put this into words better than I ever could.  I watched the match on ITV last night because I cannot stand listening to Shearer pre match, at HT, and post match.  Everyone picks on Dixon and I do too, but Shearer is as pointless useless with his "analyses".  Loves to highlight things that players SHOULD have done.  Like that's of any use to anyone when they've already happened. 

Agree last night Shearer was pointless and annoying - Stating  the bleedin' obvious all night on his commentary - But Ally McCoist  annoys me just as much  

Agree about other pundits in other sports - I watch a lot of cricket on Sky and listen to a lot on R5/R5SX and one of the hi-lights for me is the stories/info/ etc of the commentator/pundits - During lunch, breaks even those rainy day no play sessions you can listen to these guys all day 

UnclePsychosis

guitars4you said:

UnclePsychosis said:

I do love everyone ignoring the elephant in the room WRT Harry Kane.

"how come a man who has consistently failed to turn up in big games and who has never won a trophy in his entire career didn't turn up in the final?" 

Tough one, lads... 

I don't think HK is the reason we did not win - I don't think he is the reason we lost - There is always more than one issue in a team game - But I do agree he had a poor tournament - Before the tournament and certainly before his move to BM he was one of only 3 top CF style strikers in the world - Along side Mbappe and Haaland - But it does raise questions for GS or a new manager - But on paper he has another WC and Euro's in him - But changes are needed to make something happen on the pitch 

This point has been made repeatedly but I'm going to make it again. 

"Top" strikers win things. "Top" strikers score in finals. "Top" strikers turn up when it counts. Kane is magnificent at scoring penalties against minnows but he is not a Top striker. 

p90fool

TeleMaster said:

p90fool said:

Sorry, it wasn't meant personally, it's more a comment on the whole media and punditry obsession with England being entitled to a win. 

No one thinks we're entitled to it. The whole 'it's coming home' thing is just a joke. We're just poking fun at ourselves because we know it's not coming home.

Anyone who actually thinks the English are being serious with all of that needs to lighten up and get the joke. 

I have to admit that the possibility that everyone was just joking completely sailed over my head.

I'll view the likes of Lee Dixon and Alan Shearer in a totally different light from now on!

EricTheWeary

I think my favourite bit of commentary was "the ball is drifting to Shaw." 

UnclePsychosis

England fans saying that the endless "it's coming home" chat is just a joke has heavy Jeremy Clarkson oh-shit-people-have-called-me-on-my-bullshit "its just banter" vibes to it and is just about as credible. 

LionAquaLooper

This tournament has highlighted one player for me, in a good and a bad way (though the bad isn't about him).  Cole Palmer.  It's already unbelievable what he's done at Chelsea.  That team had little to no teeth up front and I would call an average midfield and he's basically inspired and carried that whole attacking side on his back, racking up stats rivalling Haaland who had a better supporting cast and is bigger, quicker, stronger and a CF.  Palmer did this all from midfield (right wing mostly). I think he's even beaten one of Lampard's club records though I might be wrong?  Then in this tournament, he provided the assist to Watkins in the semis and scored a sublime equaliser last night.  And he did this all in how many total minutes?

I would argue he's a great deal better than someone like Beckham already at this stage of the latter's career.  I chose Beckham because this guy was the pinnacle of England's football when he was still active.  But in my opinion he was a one trick pony and statistically not even as productive or efficient as Palmer in ANY of his playing seasons.  Put him in a team with no supporting cast I really doubt he'd do what Palmer's done.  Yet he was the nation's golden boy.  Courted by the top clubs, commanded the highest of salaries, seen by most as being in the same level as Brazilian Ronaldo, Figo, Zidane (which I always found hilarious).  I would put Scholes up there instead TBH.

But it made me think - even if Palmer continues on his trajectory, will he get elevated to the same stratosphere as Beckham by the media and by British people in general?  Time will tell but I really really doubt it.   And I think it'll be because he's not "marketable" for the tabloids, shirt makers, big brands - despite his on-field achievements and talent.  Talent and stats gets you places, but your image lifts you above the rest.  What's sad is that I think this kind of thing only happens in English football i.e. if Beckham was Spanish, German or French, would he be put head and shoulders above Xavi, Muller and Zidane? 

I wish Palmer more success because from what I've already seen at his young age, he's the closest thing to an Iniesta that England has produced in terms of composure, skill and football IQ.  I say "closest" - don't misconstrue that as me saying  "equal to".  

p.s. I support Barnet FC so I have no bias towards or against Chelsea, Man U, etc              

RaymondLin

Palmer is amazing, the guy carried Chelsea last season and he didn't play until the 9th or 10th game (yet he racked up more points than most on FF).  We talk about Bellingham being a leader and showing no nerves, Palmer did the same as Chelsea.  Stood forward to take all the penalties as a new kid on the block, and score vital goals and every time he went on the pitch he delivered. 

Compared to say...Foden, who needs others in the team to play a certain way in order to get the best out of him, Palmer is a more intelligent player who is able to create chances himself or for others, even in a struggling team.

Teetonetal

I really hope we get a new manager for the next wc & euro cycle... we have some talent, the squad depth is quite strong...

But I'd like to see another manager with these players..but no real idea who would be best. Though the one I'd like to see is Eddie Howe

Boromedic

I think you have written off Beckham a bit too easily there, big game player who stepped up when needed and won key games for all the sides he played for, including England. One of the greatest dead ball specialists ever, and could pass a ball with the best, he was insanely good a pinging a perfectly weighted ball any number of yards for the likes of Zidane to run on to. Yes he couldn't really go past a man, but he was never an outright winger anyway. He would also run himself into the ground for his team. He was not a Zidane, Xavi, Messi level player, but he was up there in terms of how good he was at the above skills. I mean look how shit pretty much all our corners and free kicks were at the Euros, crying out for someone of Beckham's skill!

Couldn't really tackle that well is about the worst I could level at him (bit like Scholes!), I think Scholes was the better all round player, but in an England shirt Beckham was the bigger game player and match winner. Comparing him to Palmer is a bit apple and oranges as they're different types of players. Madrid spent big on David because of the aforementioned talents, time might show Palmer is indeed better. I would pick a prime era Beckham over him though.

TeleMaster

p90fool said:

TeleMaster said:

p90fool said:

Sorry, it wasn't meant personally, it's more a comment on the whole media and punditry obsession with England being entitled to a win. 

No one thinks we're entitled to it. The whole 'it's coming home' thing is just a joke. We're just poking fun at ourselves because we know it's not coming home.

Anyone who actually thinks the English are being serious with all of that needs to lighten up and get the joke. 

I have to admit that the possibility that everyone was just joking completely sailed over my head.

I'll view the likes of Lee Dixon and Alan Shearer in a totally different light from now on!

Don't worry, it seems to have sailed over others heads too. Every football fan wants their team to win, thinks they deserve it, this is the same with all pundits and fans.

I was in Amsterdam a few weeks ago and we watched England v Denmark in a bar, and when we conceded this crowd of Dutch people came over to us singing it with the English fans. Everyone knew it wasn't coming home, and that's why it was funny.

Yes it can come across as a bit arrogant to others, and I think the humour is lost on some, but it's not racist or sexist and pales into insignificance compared to the issues they have in Spain, Italy, eastern Europe with open racism in the stands, so it's ultimately completely harmless self deprecation and so I'd say people need to take a day off sometimes.

thecolourbox

Difficult to think who would consider taking the job if Southgate does go, let alone who people would want instead. I've just looked at a list of current English managers, Eddie Howe seems highest placed in terms of club position, Gary O'Neill from Wolves next, but would either of them really want to leave club football for an international job? It seems to be a terminal job, the managers that take it never seem to be able to get another decent job afterwards, apart from Roy I suppose. 

Are there any non-English managers who would be likely to want it who would actually potentially do a good job?

UnclePsychosis

Boromedic said:

I think you have written off Beckham a bit too easily there, big game player who stepped up when needed and won key games for all the sides he played for, including England. One of the greatest dead ball specialists ever, and could pass a ball with the best, he was insanely good a pinging a perfectly weighted ball any number of yards for the likes of Zidane to run on to. Yes he couldn't really go past a man, but he was never an outright winger anyway. He would also run himself into the ground for his team. He was not a Zidane, Xavi, Messi level player, but he was up there in terms of how good he was at the above skills. I mean look how shit pretty much all our corners and free kicks were at the Euros, crying out for someone of Beckham's skill!

Couldn't really tackle that well is about the worst I could level at him (bit like Scholes!), I think Scholes was the better all round player, but in an England shirt Beckham was the bigger game player and match winner. Comparing him to Palmer is a bit apple and oranges as they're different types of players. Madrid spent big on David because of the aforementioned talents, time might show Palmer is indeed better. I would pick a prime era Beckham over him though.

Agreed. Beckham absolutely carried England for years. A phenomenal player who doesn't get nearly enough credit. 

munckee

UnclePsychosis said:

England fans saying that the endless "it's coming home" chat is just a joke has heavy Jeremy Clarkson oh-shit-people-have-called-me-on-my-bullshit "its just banter" vibes to it and is just about as credible. 

The reference is to football coming home to England as in the home of modern football as we had the first official league system in the world. The lyrics of the song don’t even suggest we would win it just that the tournament was in England in 96. 

I’ve never heard anyone say we had some special right to win anything, just that we really want to. 

Gassage

Picking up on a point here...

English Entitlement:

This really interests me as I think there is some validity in this, but I also think there's another force alongside- English moral values and our innate need to apologise for stuff in the past.

When I did my Level 4 Elite Rugby Coach Course Eddie Jones was my mentor; despite his failure at end of his tenure he is the best coaching mind I've ever met (and anyone who's worked with him would agree). Maybe not the best man manager, and very eccentric, but he is a coaching genius, as well as being an insufferable narcissist.

1. EJ believes that England suffers from an inability to be nasty, to kill off their opponents and that's rooted in our culture and our apologetic nature. He believes that we also put esoteric 'look' over outcome and output and that 'look' requires us to dominate possession in both rugby and footy- almost to be the executive management of the game rather than the workers delivering, and to get fixated by quantity of ball in possession time over scoreboard outcome, whilst remaining civil and decent at all times. I agree with him.

2. He also believes that ridiculous media and public weight of expectation and the unconscious notion that 'we should win against xyz, after all we invented the game' place ridiculous pressure on players that almost prevents them from enjoying their performance and, in turn, prevents them from executing as they should. In other words, fear of failure over  embracing an opportunity for success is the over-riding driver.

3. You might frame this as we, as a nation, are not proud of our national identity and we struggle to motivate positively from it. It's such a complex one, more so than most, and the relevance of singing about some unelected interbred before you go out to battle is almost a metaphor for this dichotomy. This is one reason we find it easier to relate to club football rather than international football. Conversely other nations generally dislike us and want to smash us to pieces because of perceived and actual arrogance, weight of history etc and have no issue building emotion to do so.

4. Lastly, culturally, especially in rugby, less so in footy but deffo a bit in it, players are signed so early in their careers that they don't have a weight of life experience to give them a benchmark of 'failure' or 'desperation' which removes desire for ultimate measurement. I can't really articulate this other than saying when Siya Kolisi lifted the world cup in 2019 he was asked if he dreamed of doing so as a kid- his response was 'No mate, I dreamt of where my next meal was coming from...' EJ remarked that that level of emotional experience from a remarkably impoverished background gave a desire that he cannot replicate. Sure, there's a load of public school white players in the boks but they take those experiences from their colleagues into one collective.

You might not agree with me, but the simple truth is, even when we've had the best side in the world by a mile (1966 with home advantage) 1991 RWC with home advantage 2003 RWC, 2019 CWC we have either failed completely or we have not been able to kill off teams that shouldn't be living with us (91,03,19 very evidently, where we choked in one and won two by a fag paper in extra time).

UnclePsychosis

munckee said:

UnclePsychosis said:

England fans saying that the endless "it's coming home" chat is just a joke has heavy Jeremy Clarkson oh-shit-people-have-called-me-on-my-bullshit "its just banter" vibes to it and is just about as credible. 

The reference is to football coming home to England as in the home of modern football as we had the first official league system in the world. The lyrics of the song don’t even suggest we would win it just that the tournament was in England in 96. 

I’ve never heard anyone say we had some special right to win anything, just that we really want to. 

"we're not being obnoxious, we're chanting about the formation of the league system" is definitely one of the more original excuses I've heard. 

  

scrumhalf

Not every word that comes out of the mouths of fans is to be taken entirely seriously.

Do you really think that every fan who sings "we're by far the greatest team the world has ever seen" has an unshakeable belief that it's true?

As for media coverage, I believe that the people you need to question are Phil Airtime and Philippa Page.

thecolourbox

On the other hand, my club West Brom sing "slap a Dingle" quite often, and when given the opportunity to do so at the FA Cup match earlier this year, sadly did indeed take up the chance

the_jaffa

Gassage said:

Picking up on a point here...

English Entitlement:

This really interests me as I think there is some validity in this, but I also think there's another force alongside- English moral values and our innate need to apologise for stuff in the past.

When I did my Level 4 Elite Rugby Coach Course Eddie Jones was my mentor; despite his failure at end of his tenure he is the best coaching mind I've ever met (and anyone who's worked with him would agree). Maybe not the best man manager, and very eccentric, but he is a coaching genius, as well as being an insufferable narcissist.

1. EJ believes that England suffers from an inability to be nasty, to kill off their opponents and that's rooted in our culture and our apologetic nature. He believes that we also put esoteric 'look' over outcome and output and that 'look' requires us to dominate possession in both rugby and footy- almost to be the executive management of the game rather than the workers delivering, and to get fixated by quantity of ball in possession time over scoreboard outcome, whilst remaining civil and decent at all times. I agree with him.

2. He also believes that ridiculous media and public weight of expectation and the unconscious notion that 'we should win against xyz, after all we invented the game' place ridiculous pressure on players that almost prevents them from enjoying their performance and, in turn, prevents them from executing as they should. In other words, fear of failure over  embracing an opportunity for success is the over-riding driver.

3. You might frame this as we, as a nation, are not proud of our national identity and we struggle to motivate positively from it. It's such a complex one, more so than most, and the relevance of singing about some unelected interbred before you go out to battle is almost a metaphor for this dichotomy. This is one reason we find it easier to relate to club football rather than international football. Conversely other nations generally dislike us and want to smash us to pieces because of perceived and actual arrogance, weight of history etc and have no issue building emotion to do so.

4. Lastly, culturally, especially in rugby, less so in footy but deffo a bit in it, players are signed so early in their careers that they don't have a weight of life experience to give them a benchmark of 'failure' or 'desperation' which removes desire for ultimate measurement. I can't really articulate this other than saying when Siya Kolisi lifted the world cup in 2019 he was asked if he dreamed of doing so as a kid- his response was 'No mate, I dreamt of where my next meal was coming from...' EJ remarked that that level of emotional experience from a remarkably impoverished background gave a desire that he cannot replicate. Sure, there's a load of public school white players in the boks but they take those experiences from their colleagues into one collective.

You might not agree with me, but the simple truth is, even when we've had the best side in the world by a mile (1966 with home advantage) 1991 RWC with home advantage 2003 RWC, 2019 CWC we have either failed completely or we have not been able to kill off teams that shouldn't be living with us (91,03,19 very evidently, where we choked in one and won two by a fag paper in extra time).

That all makes an awful lot of sense to me

Lestratcaster

Think its time for Southgate to go, he can't really do much more and his way of play isn't really working. Maybe the next one to come in should be a foreign manager to get a more continental style of football. I wonder if Arsene Wenger is bored of his role and fancies another shot at management!