The Football Thread.

rze99

A decent a chap as he is, Southgate has rarely (not never) got some great players playing like a great team, despite bringing a sense of togetherness in the squad so we are told. 

However it is they are managed and coached, it just doesn't gel well enough often enough.

Spain were clearly very talented but also played cohesively as a team. They were much better and deserved to win.

Based on performances, England were fortunate indeed to be in the final but we just failed to play well enough again and were beaten by a side playing better together.

RaymondLin

I think Southgate was the right manager at the time he was appointed, post defeat to Iceland.  But our squad has evolved since, new players have emerged, the PL also evolved with players playing in a style that is different to the way he plays his football with the influence of Pep and Klopp being the big ones.

Players such as Kane (Bayern), Foden (City), Bellingham (RM), Rice (Arsenal), etc, plays in top European teams that retains possession, pressing teams.  Southgate doesn't seem to play in a way that these players do week in week out and even when we have momentum in the game, he would retreat into a low block.  The perfect example were when England were losing 1-0 in several of the matches, that is when the real team turned up and attack and each time we managed to score when required, but as soon as we did, we always went back to how it was when the score is even.  

So last night after Palmer equalised and before Spain scored, he was going to bring on Trippier and Gallagher.  Showing us what he was thinking, holding onto the match and preparing for Extra Time.

I think the modern game has moved on from Southgate's way of playing, our players too.

And enough of trying to fit all the best players onto the pitch out of possession.  He seems to think he HAS to play Bellingham and Foden together.  He tried Foden on the left and that didn't work so he put Bellingham on the left....that doesn't work either.  He looked uncomfortable on that side.  It reminds me of when Gerrard, Lampard and Scholes together and Gerrard was on the right wing.  This idea of "the best players can adapt" is BS, if that is true then why not put Trent in goal.  Trying to put a player that plays all year round in a different position for their club and hoping their talent will overcome it seems silly.

/armchair expert

Philly_Q

I wonder if they could have a bit of a shakeup of the England manager role, with Southgate as more of a director of football - which seems to be his real skill - and a couple of more specialised coaches brought in, with some say over in-match decisions?

As I write that, I realise they already have loads of specialised coaches.... maybe I'm saying it's time to sack Steve Holland?

guitars4you

UnclePsychosis said:

Boromedic said:

I think you have written off Beckham a bit too easily there, big game player who stepped up when needed and won key games for all the sides he played for, including England. One of the greatest dead ball specialists ever, and could pass a ball with the best, he was insanely good a pinging a perfectly weighted ball any number of yards for the likes of Zidane to run on to. Yes he couldn't really go past a man, but he was never an outright winger anyway. He would also run himself into the ground for his team. He was not a Zidane, Xavi, Messi level player, but he was up there in terms of how good he was at the above skills. I mean look how shit pretty much all our corners and free kicks were at the Euros, crying out for someone of Beckham's skill!

Couldn't really tackle that well is about the worst I could level at him (bit like Scholes!), I think Scholes was the better all round player, but in an England shirt Beckham was the bigger game player and match winner. Comparing him to Palmer is a bit apple and oranges as they're different types of players. Madrid spent big on David because of the aforementioned talents, time might show Palmer is indeed better. I would pick a prime era Beckham over him though.

Agreed. Beckham absolutely carried England for years. A phenomenal player who doesn't get nearly enough credit. 

The enigma that is David Beckham

His actions, twice in the WC, certainly contributed to the exit of the team - His sending off in 1998, then 4 years later, when he belly ached out of a tackle v Brazil in 2002 (did not want to hurt his toe) -  Then in the Euro's v France 2004 - missed penalty during the game when we went from 1-0 to loose 2-1 - Did he not blame the pitch/centre spot, or was that later when he missed again v Portugal in the penalty shootout 

The man who had the pace of a slow rocking horse - Could not tackle - Could not use his left foot - Could not head the ball - Could not run and shoot on the move, aka Bobby Charlton, Gerrard, Lampard etc - Apart from that he was excellent

The man who acquired around an additional 20/30 England caps based on reputation alone - Yet his final caps he barely huffed and puffed through them, often in a bit part role - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1220488/Jeff-Powell-David-Beckham-man-match-award-bad-joke.html - Interest article on his bit part role and MOTM award 

Without checking, I think he acquired more caps for his 17 England goals, then all those who sit above him in the goal scoring table - We all know how poor Ronaldo's conversion rate is for goals scored direct from a free kick - Something like 1 from 40 odd attempts - David can't be to far behind - If he scored 17 times in  115 games, then that means 98 games whereby he did not score - Let's be generous and say in those 98 games he had 50 free kicks that were considered in 'Beckham territory' - Then that is a poor conversion rate - And I bet he had more than 50 free kicks that resulted in nothing - Yes there was a golden moment v Greece and in his early days v Columbia - But he was not as hot as what some claim at least IMO

But he was very marketable and the girl friends and wives of football fans loved him 

RaymondLin

Here is a fun fact.

Mbappe has ever scored a free kick in his career, club or country. 

munckee

UnclePsychosis said:

munckee said:

UnclePsychosis said:

England fans saying that the endless "it's coming home" chat is just a joke has heavy Jeremy Clarkson oh-shit-people-have-called-me-on-my-bullshit "its just banter" vibes to it and is just about as credible. 

The reference is to football coming home to England as in the home of modern football as we had the first official league system in the world. The lyrics of the song don’t even suggest we would win it just that the tournament was in England in 96. 

I’ve never heard anyone say we had some special right to win anything, just that we really want to. 

"we're not being obnoxious, we're chanting about the formation of the league system" is definitely one of the more original excuses I've heard. 

  

Its pretty much the universally accepted meaning?

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/this-is-what-footballs-coming-home-actually-means-3301429

Whether some fans are chanting it to me mean we are some type of deities entitled to win I can't say.

Philly_Q

guitars4you said:

The enigma that is David Beckham

<snip>

But he was very marketable and the girl friends and wives of football fans loved him 

Have you noticed all the adverts he's been doing lately?  Of course he had that deal to promote Qatar at the last WC, but just recently there's Walkers crisps, Stella Artois, even Omaze.  Surely the Beckhams don't need the money?

Gassage

Philly_Q said:

guitars4you said:

The enigma that is David Beckham

<snip>

But he was very marketable and the girl friends and wives of football fans loved him 

Have you noticed all the adverts he's been doing lately?  Of course he had that deal to promote Qatar at the last WC, but just recently there's Walkers crisps, Stella Artois, even Omaze.  Surely the Beckhams don't need the money?

I actually sold my Breitling on the basis I couldn't be associated with any brand that MegaChav Beckham had an interest in. Besides, they'd got far too fashion driven and lost all sight of their roots as a brand.

And, also, I couldn't read the bloody dials anymore without my glasses, so pointless.

Creed_Clicks

Gassage said:

Philly_Q said:

guitars4you said:

The enigma that is David Beckham

<snip>

But he was very marketable and the girl friends and wives of football fans loved him 

Have you noticed all the adverts he's been doing lately?  Of course he had that deal to promote Qatar at the last WC, but just recently there's Walkers crisps, Stella Artois, even Omaze.  Surely the Beckhams don't need the money?

I actually sold my Breitling on the basis I couldn't be associated with any brand that MegaChav Beckham had an interest in. Besides, they'd got far too fashion driven and lost all sight of their roots as a brand.

And, also, I couldn't read the bloody dials anymore without my glasses, so pointless.

I know someone working for a private airline who thought "megachav" Beckham was one of the nicest people they have flown. That's top drawer snobbery though.

guitars4you

Gassage said:

Philly_Q said:

guitars4you said:

The enigma that is David Beckham

<snip>

But he was very marketable and the girl friends and wives of football fans loved him 

Have you noticed all the adverts he's been doing lately?  Of course he had that deal to promote Qatar at the last WC, but just recently there's Walkers crisps, Stella Artois, even Omaze.  Surely the Beckhams don't need the money?

I actually sold my Breitling on the basis I couldn't be associated with any brand that MegaChav Beckham had an interest in. Besides, they'd got far too fashion driven and lost all sight of their roots as a brand.

And, also, I couldn't read the bloody dials anymore without my glasses, so pointless.

I was once looking at buying a Belstaff Leather jacket - The sales person said this is the same one that DB wears - It instantly went back on the rack 

LionAquaLooper

Philly_Q said:

guitars4you said:

The enigma that is David Beckham

<snip>

But he was very marketable and the girl friends and wives of football fans loved him 

Have you noticed all the adverts he's been doing lately?  Of course he had that deal to promote Qatar at the last WC, but just recently there's Walkers crisps, Stella Artois, even Omaze.  Surely the Beckhams don't need the money?

Don't forget AliExpress.  And yes - I thought the exact same thing as you.  I reckon he and Victoria would advertise for the Chinese Spy Agency if they got paid for it.

guitars4you said:

UnclePsychosis said:

Boromedic said:

I think you have written off Beckham a bit too easily there, big game player who stepped up when needed and won key games for all the sides he played for, including England. One of the greatest dead ball specialists ever, and could pass a ball with the best, he was insanely good a pinging a perfectly weighted ball any number of yards for the likes of Zidane to run on to. Yes he couldn't really go past a man, but he was never an outright winger anyway. He would also run himself into the ground for his team. He was not a Zidane, Xavi, Messi level player, but he was up there in terms of how good he was at the above skills. I mean look how shit pretty much all our corners and free kicks were at the Euros, crying out for someone of Beckham's skill!

Couldn't really tackle that well is about the worst I could level at him (bit like Scholes!), I think Scholes was the better all round player, but in an England shirt Beckham was the bigger game player and match winner. Comparing him to Palmer is a bit apple and oranges as they're different types of players. Madrid spent big on David because of the aforementioned talents, time might show Palmer is indeed better. I would pick a prime era Beckham over him though.

Agreed. Beckham absolutely carried England for years. A phenomenal player who doesn't get nearly enough credit. 

The enigma that is David Beckham

His actions, twice in the WC, certainly contributed to the exit of the team - His sending off in 1998, then 4 years later, when he belly ached out of a tackle v Brazil in 2002 (did not want to hurt his toe) -  Then in the Euro's v France 2004 - missed penalty during the game when we went from 1-0 to loose 2-1 - Did he not blame the pitch/centre spot, or was that later when he missed again v Portugal in the penalty shootout 

The man who had the pace of a slow rocking horse - Could not tackle - Could not use his left foot - Could not head the ball - Could not run and shoot on the move, aka Bobby Charlton, Gerrard, Lampard etc - Apart from that he was excellent

The man who acquired around an additional 20/30 England caps based on reputation alone - Yet his final caps he barely huffed and puffed through them, often in a bit part role - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1220488/Jeff-Powell-David-Beckham-man-match-award-bad-joke.html - Interest article on his bit part role and MOTM award 

Without checking, I think he acquired more caps for his 17 England goals, then all those who sit above him in the goal scoring table - We all know how poor Ronaldo's conversion rate is for goals scored direct from a free kick - Something like 1 from 40 odd attempts - David can't be to far behind - If he scored 17 times in  115 games, then that means 98 games whereby he did not score - Let's be generous and say in those 98 games he had 50 free kicks that were considered in 'Beckham territory' - Then that is a poor conversion rate - And I bet he had more than 50 free kicks that resulted in nothing - Yes there was a golden moment v Greece and in his early days v Columbia - But he was not as hot as what some claim at least IMO

But he was very marketable and the girl friends and wives of football fans loved him 

Agreed.  I used the term one-trick pony in my previous post and some might say that's harsh.  But my point is that it's sad that someone like Cole Palmer will (possibly) never achieve that god-like status just because he isn't as marketable even if he surpasses the on-field achievements and stats of someone like Beckham.  I think to get there, he'd have to perform as well as Messi for the public and tabloids to get over the lack of marketability.

Gassage

Creed_Clicks said:

Gassage said:

Philly_Q said:

guitars4you said:

The enigma that is David Beckham

<snip>

But he was very marketable and the girl friends and wives of football fans loved him 

Have you noticed all the adverts he's been doing lately?  Of course he had that deal to promote Qatar at the last WC, but just recently there's Walkers crisps, Stella Artois, even Omaze.  Surely the Beckhams don't need the money?

I actually sold my Breitling on the basis I couldn't be associated with any brand that MegaChav Beckham had an interest in. Besides, they'd got far too fashion driven and lost all sight of their roots as a brand.

And, also, I couldn't read the bloody dials anymore without my glasses, so pointless.

I know someone working for a private airline who thought "megachav" Beckham was one of the nicest people they have flown. That's top drawer snobbery though.

When I co-owed the casting/choreog business in 00s, we provided the great Lavelle Smith Jr to Victoria for her comeback single (c. 06?)

She sacked him after a frustrating week when he lost his temper with her and she overheard him describe her as the least talented person he'd ever worked with.....

She leaked her whereabouts to the press, pics, the lot. It was quite an experience.

victorludorum

Gassage said:

Creed_Clicks said:

Gassage said:

Philly_Q said:

guitars4you said:

The enigma that is David Beckham

<snip>

But he was very marketable and the girl friends and wives of football fans loved him 

Have you noticed all the adverts he's been doing lately?  Of course he had that deal to promote Qatar at the last WC, but just recently there's Walkers crisps, Stella Artois, even Omaze.  Surely the Beckhams don't need the money?

I actually sold my Breitling on the basis I couldn't be associated with any brand that MegaChav Beckham had an interest in. Besides, they'd got far too fashion driven and lost all sight of their roots as a brand.

And, also, I couldn't read the bloody dials anymore without my glasses, so pointless.

I know someone working for a private airline who thought "megachav" Beckham was one of the nicest people they have flown. That's top drawer snobbery though.

When I co-owed the casting/choreog business in 00s, we provided the great Lavelle Smith Jr to Victoria for her comeback single (c. 06?)

She sacked him after a frustrating week when he lost his temper with her and she overheard him describe her as the least talented person he'd ever worked with.....

She leaked her whereabouts to the press, pics, the lot. It was quite an experience.

But did she have a Breitling though?

thecolourbox

I can't remember which player it was or who said it (think it was possibly about Chris Brunt?) but I always recall an amusing quote about one of West Broms players - "He has the ball control of Beckham - trouble is, it's whether it's David or Victoria"

TTony

Southgate has resigned.

cruxiform

You know it makes sense.

munckee

I think Southgate should be very proud. He has faced criticism but his job was to try and win a tournament and he got closer than anyone in my lifetime and consistently performed. 

Eddie Howe I guess is most likely and best option assuming they aren’t going to go to go for Klopp. 

munckee

That’s assuming of course Howe wants a job where you can get to a semi a quarter and a final and then get pelted by your own fans for qualifying first from your group at a euros.  

thecolourbox

cruxiform said:

You know it makes sense.

The only England manager ever with a 100% win rate?

TTony

munckee said:

Eddie Howe I guess is most likely and best option assuming they aren’t going to go to go for Klopp. 

Potter - Howe - Pochettino (in that order) according to the betting ...

munckee said:

That’s assuming of course Howe wants a job where you can get to a semi a quarter and a final and then get pelted by your own fans for qualifying first from your group at a euros.  

It's not the "what", it's the "how".

The argument seems to have assumed that you can either play boring football and win, or play entertaining football (with the implication being that you'd then lose).

The whole point has been, with the players available, surely it would have been possible to play entertaining football and win?  Like, errr, Spain did ...

England were ridiculously lucky to have got beyond the round-of-16.