The Football Thread.

Teetonetal

If you take a player like Kane, then plan A should be to set up for his strengths. Plan b an c are then to have someone else on the pitch with another system..  if you are not going to play to his strength then why use him at all.

His recent record club record is very, very good so he's not really the problem, but you have to question if the manager was using him in the right way.

If he was not fit, then again don't play him.

I think Southgate got very lucky with the results and some magic individual contributions. England were one of the most insipid and uninspiring teams of the tournament overall.

guitars4you

UnclePsychosis said:

TTony said:

Rocker said:

International football has changed how the game itself is played.  This has happened in the past twenty years or so.  Looking at the Euro games and ignoring the ball, the way the players are setup has changed.

No team can afford the luxury of a 'big man' upfront any more.  Kane, Giroud, Muller etc., 

That's "the past twenty years" in which Kane became England's all-time #1 goalscorer?

Ditto Lukaku (and the big man doesn't come much bigger than him) for Belgium?

As much as I disagree with a lot of Rockers post, this is actually an interesting point in there. Number 9s don't really fit into the way the top teams play now. It's part of the reason Kane contributed fuck all at this tournament, the team wasn't set up to play with a number 9. 

Stolen from elsewhere - if you take the frontmen from each of the four semi finalists at this tournament you have Yamal, Morata, Williams; Mbappé, Griezmann, Muari; Malen, Depay, Gakpo; Bellingham, Kane, Foden. 

Out of the 12, there are only two out and out strikers (Kane and Morata). 

That is why I think #9's will come back into play - I feel that modern centre back's have forgotten how to mark/handle them, so a team that takes it back on board can create a fresh challenge again  - Depends on your age, but that Keegan/Toshak combination can still work - Shearer/Owen etc - So Kane + one other - Remember the bulk of Man U's success under Fergie was with 2 central strikers and often a 4-4-2 format

Stolen from elsewhere - if you take the frontmen from each of the four semi finalists at this tournament you have Yamal, Morata, Williams; Mbappé, Griezmann, Muari; Malen, Depay, Gakpo; Bellingham, Kane, Foden. - You mention these combinations - The French team scored 1 goal in open play in the whole tournament - Maybe they need a #9 - Good job Spain don't have a good traditional #9 as they'd be lethal if they had a genuine goal scorer

And talking about #9's - What is Haaland 

See below - Yet interesting when you look at England's leading scorers over 60 odd years or so and only Kane + Shearer fit the traditional bigger #9 style of striker - I know Lineker and Owen + Greaves were all lethal finishes but they were not your traditional 'larger' target man - Not sure about Lofthouse and Finney as before my time 

1- Harry Kane – 66 goals in 97 appearances
2 - Wayne Rooney – 53 goals in 120 appearances
3- Sir Bobby Charlton – 49 goals in 106 appearances
4- Gary Lineker – 48 goals in 80 appearances
5- Jimmy Greaves – 44 goals in 57 appearances
6- Michael Owen – 40 goals in 89 appearances
7= Sir Tom Finney – 30 goals in 76 appearances
7= Nat Lofthouse – 30 goals in 33 appearances
7= Alan Shearer – 30 goals in 63 appearances
10= Frank Lampard – 29 goals in 106 appearances

But I do agree it is about how you set up to play - I don't think England are geared up to hold the ball then distribute it in that 1/4 back style from deep  - Will try and find the stats - But look at Kroos and his passing accuracy - Long, med or short passes - Amount of passes into the attacking 3rd - Passes into the penalty area - Passes into key areas 

https://www.uefa.com/euro2024/teams/players/103147--toni-kroos/statistics/

https://www.uefa.com/euro2024/teams/players/250083732--declan-rice/statistics/

This is not knocking Rice as he is a quality player but he does not have that range of passing that a Modric/Kroos have - And Rice's stats are still good - But take into account Kroos played 2 games less yet he still 

But I do agree that when the game has found excellent wide players who can come inside and score, they have become big stars - Henry, Ronaldo and Mbappe to name 3 

In short I don't think it is the end of a genuine #9 - It is a lull before they come back again 

guitars4you

Teetonetal said:

If you take a player like Kane, then plan A should be to set up for his strengths. Plan b an c are then to have someone else on the pitch with another system..  if you are not going to play to his strength then why use him at all.

His recent record club record is very, very good so he's not really the problem, but you have to question if the manager was using him in the right way.

If he was not fit, then again don't play him.

Agree on all the above points

sev112

UnclePsychosis said:

TTony said:

Rocker said:

International football has changed how the game itself is played.  This has happened in the past twenty years or so.  Looking at the Euro games and ignoring the ball, the way the players are setup has changed.

No team can afford the luxury of a 'big man' upfront any more.  Kane, Giroud, Muller etc., 

That's "the past twenty years" in which Kane became England's all-time #1 goalscorer?

Ditto Lukaku (and the big man doesn't come much bigger than him) for Belgium?

As much as I disagree with a lot of Rockers post, this is actually an interesting point in there. Number 9s don't really fit into the way the top teams play now. It's part of the reason Kane contributed fuck all at this tournament, the team wasn't set up to play with a number 9. 

Stolen from elsewhere - if you take the frontmen from each of the four semi finalists at this tournament you have Yamal, Morata, Williams; Mbappé, Griezmann, Muari; Malen, Depay, Gakpo; Bellingham, Kane, Foden. 

Out of the 12, there are only two out and out strikers (Kane and Morata). 

And it was a very boring attacking tournament and those 2 points might have something to do with it ?

by the way Kane won the Golden Boot

TTony

sev112 said:

by the way Kane won the Golden Boot

Another personal award to go with a team runner's up medal ...

TTony

Another aspect that I found interesting ...

The amount of interaction between players on different sides pre/post the whistle.  There were so many players, playing for different countries, who knew each other well as they played (whether currently or in the recent past) for the same league clubs.  They maybe even knew each other better than they knew many of their international team-mates.

Of course they still wanted, and played, to win for their national team, but I wonder how much it affected some of the interaction within a game.  

It's certainly a factor that has changed over the past 20-30 years as more clubs in more leagues have become more international.

RocknRollDave

My football knowledge may be a little out-of-date but I’m going to suggest Ron Saunders for England manager.

Nitefly

RocknRollDave said:

My football knowledge may be a little out-of-date but I’m going to suggest Ron Saunders for England manager.

Better off with Ron Knee... 

bloodandtears

guitars4you said:

I wonder how long it will be before we see a kind of 4-4-2 again - Kane can still do a good job for England if he had a 'Rooney' esq player hanging around/off him - Be that Watkins, Foden, Bellingham - Don't think he can lead the line again, based on recent games a WC 2 years away in a warm climate 

I said this 5 pages ago.. and most of the tournament...  he needs a runner... like Son was..  

Did Southgate trial the Watkins/Kane partnership in friendlies?? or was it always one-in , one-out?

Boromedic

So the latest odds are interesting, Carsley is third favourite I think. Good recent history with the under 21s, used to working with players in short spells for international breaks and familiar with the setup. Decent results too, might be worth a shot tbh, there's question marks over Howe and Potter whereas Carsley is already in the setup. It's also what the Spanish and other decent international setups sometimes do. Promote from the ranks. 

If all else fails, give him a run at the League Of Nations and see how he fares maybe?

victorludorum

Boromedic said:

So the latest odds are interesting, Carsley is third favourite I think. Good recent history with the under 21s, used to working with players in short spells for international breaks and familiar with the setup. Decent results too, might be worth a shot tbh, there's question marks over Howe and Potter whereas Carsley is already in the setup. It's also what the Spanish and other decent international setups sometimes do. Promote from the ranks. 

If all else fails, give him a run at the League Of Nations and see how he fares maybe?

Wasn't Southgate promoted from within the ranks?

joneve

victorludorum said:

Boromedic said:

So the latest odds are interesting, Carsley is third favourite I think. Good recent history with the under 21s, used to working with players in short spells for international breaks and familiar with the setup. Decent results too, might be worth a shot tbh, there's question marks over Howe and Potter whereas Carsley is already in the setup. It's also what the Spanish and other decent international setups sometimes do. Promote from the ranks. 

If all else fails, give him a run at the League Of Nations and see how he fares maybe?

Wasn't Southgate promoted from within the ranks?

Yes. But you could argue that he hadn't had the success that Carsley has had with the U21s. Carsley's worked with the majority of the guys in the England setup already and, despite being ex-Derby, would be a good appointment. 

As has been mentioned - if they're seriously thinking of Pep longterm and are "willing to wait", give him the job as interim coach, see how he gets on - you've got nothing to lose. Worst case, he sucks and it fails miserably at best, he wins the World Cup and euros and becomes a national hero. 

joneve

Away from International Football - the domestic season is just around the corner...how's everyone feeling about pre-season so far? 

Forest have made some very astute moves early in the transfer window. Somehow got nearly £30m profit for Moussa Niakhate and Orel Mandala - having only bought them 2 years ago...

Bought in an absolute Giant in goal (6ft 8) from Brazil and the mad Serbian Milenkovic at CB who's 6ft 5....so clearly trying to address our premier league-history-worst set piece goals conceded from last season. 

We also bought in some German wonder kid ad RB/RWB who has looked positive in pre-season so far. 

Home kit was finally released and it's beautiful. 

Generally, mostly positive and calm so far - which is complete contrast to the last 2 off-seasons! 

Based on what I know so far, we aren't winning anything less than the treble. 

mrkb

Its been a weird transfer market so far with the non FFP compliant clubs selling each other "2 appearance" players for £30m on 6 year contracts to get round the rules.

TTony

Spurs completed one of their best "transfers" ever earlier in the summer.

No More Ndombelazygit - contract cancelled.

First proper pre-season friendly last night, beat Hearts 5-1.  The result was obviously OK, but I was most pleased by some of the players getting onto the pitch, hopefully they'll get into the first team squad for the season rather than us splashing more cash on transfers (I'll make an exception for Eze).

• Jamie Donley (19yo) - played at LB last night but is more usually an attacking midfielder.
• Djed Spence (23yo) - scored one, assisted one - he played pretty well, fingers crossed that he's matured out of any "attitude" issues and gets some game time, because I think he's got talent (RB) and fits Postecoglou's system.
• Lucas Bergvall (18yo) - signed in Jan, but only just joined.  He's a proper talent, expect to see him gradually introduced into the first team next season.
• Ash Phillips (19yo) - by all accounts he had a pretty good loan season last year - and we need another CB in the squad so hopefully he's the man.
• Alfie Devine (19yo) - ditto re loan experience last year - he needs a breakthrough season now.
• Tyrese Halll (18yo) - not had any outside experience yet, but good performances through the youth teams to date, and played the 2nd half last night.  
• Will Lankshear (19yo) - scored, scored, scored and scored some more for the U21s last year.  First team or loan?
• Dane Scarlett (20yo) - had a couple of failed loan moves - it's not really clicked for him, yet
• Mikey Moore (16yo) - ridiculous talent.

Archie Gray did well @guitars4you - though he was playing at CB as most of our CBs are still on ost-tournament leave.  He's clearly straight into the first team squad next season.

There are some proper skilled young players there and I can realistically see half of them in the first team next year.

"You never win anything with kids", so they should fit in well at Spurs (I'll just get that one in to save anyone else the trouble).

joneve

mrkb said:

Its been a weird transfer market so far with the non FFP compliant clubs selling each other "2 appearance" players for £30m on 6 year contracts to get round the rules.

Make silly rules, get silly responses to them. 

Also, "non-FFP compliant clubs" is a bit of a generalisation. It's ridiculous that Villa were being reported as having to sell marquee players to meet FFP - when they're playing in the Champion's League this season. 

No-mention of Chelsea selling off assets (hotels) to get round it either - which is just as weird. 

guitars4you

TTony said:

Spurs completed one of their best "transfers" ever earlier in the summer.

No More Ndombelazygit - contract cancelled.

First proper pre-season friendly last night, beat Hearts 5-1.  The result was obviously OK, but I was most pleased by some of the players getting onto the pitch, hopefully they'll get into the first team squad for the season rather than us splashing more cash on transfers (I'll make an exception for Eze).

• Djed Spence (23yo) - scored one, assisted one - he played pretty well, fingers crossed that he's matured out of any "attitude" issues and gets some game time, because I think he's got talent (RB) and fits Postecoglou's system

Archie Gray did well @guitars4you - though he was playing at CB as most of our CBs are still on ost-tournament leave.  He's clearly straight into the first team squad next season.

Archie played more games at RB than midfield - Will be interesting to see where he goes with Spurs and how you use him - He is not a goal scoring midfield player in the style of Gerrard/Lampard etc - He tends to play deeper with a good pass/distribution from there - aka Kroos/Modric - He can tackle but not a Keane style enforcer - Good attitude, good engine and by and large a clean player so no mouthing off and picking up multi cards - I'll be keeping an eye on him

Spence was a good player but apparently a shit attitude - late for training and questioned the senior players/management about visiting the children's hospital at Christmas - Others have said likewise

TTony

guitars4you said:

Spence was a good player but apparently a shit attitude - late for training and questioned the senior players/management about visiting the children's hospital at Christmas - Others have said likewise

That's certainly the reputation that he seems/seemed to have.

But then, when I was 20/21, I also had a pretty shit attitude

Hoping that perhaps some maturing, some different experiences in Italy last year, and perhaps some better advice around him will change the attitude.  He's got the skill and physique for PL football, and the attacking instincts that would work well with Postecoglou's style.  

p90fool

munckee said:

TTony said:

munckee said:

and lost one final on penalties and another to a goal in the last 5 minutes.  

... although they only made it to the final - to lose in the last 5 minutes - by equalising against the footballing powerhouse of Slovakia in the 96th minute ...


England's team was drawn from the best club sides across Europe, and the squad was the most highly valued (FWIW).  They should be "the best" individual players.  And yet they failed to function effectively, either individually or as a team.  The job of the manager is to take individual parts and make them work as a cohesive whole. 

Southgate failed in that respect.

But it's not only down to him.  Many of the players also looked exhausted.  I don't think the entire blame was the wrong formation, the safety-first approach, or playing them in wrong positions.  They just didn't look like they had the energy.  Kane was lethargic.  Saka got lots of positive comments, but he scored one and made another via a lucky deflection.  Bellingham had one moment of genius/skill (or luck) and a few nice touches, but spent more time looking moody.  Trippier looked completely out of depth. 

Too much football?

Some of the criticism of Southgate and the players is fair, however I think he had earned the right to leave on his own terms with thanks from the public which he largely has. My biggest issue is with the booing and pelting him with stuff, England fans have short memories. 

Southgate did pretty well, apparently one of the entrances to Wembley Stadium is named after him. 

thecolourbox

joneve said:

mrkb said:

Its been a weird transfer market so far with the non FFP compliant clubs selling each other "2 appearance" players for £30m on 6 year contracts to get round the rules.

Make silly rules, get silly responses to them. 

Also, "non-FFP compliant clubs" is a bit of a generalisation. It's ridiculous that Villa were being reported as having to sell marquee players to meet FFP - when they're playing in the Champion's League this season. 

No-mention of Chelsea selling off assets (hotels) to get round it either - which is just as weird. 

To be fair Villa have been courting it for years - I think they were "saved" from it by getting relegated if I recall correctly, and then when they eventually got promoted again it was just-in-time before they had issues at EFL level so the playoffs were literally their last chance saloon. Then when they stayed up (due in no small part to VAR not working in one match) they avoided the EFL punishment again by not getting relegated. Now they are doing well as they finally have a manager who is good, it doesn't suddenly make them immune to the rules - however silly the rules may be.

I don't know what the answer is though as to how they can make FFP work fairly across the board for all the different clubs' situations