The F1 thread

Fretwired

thumpingrug said:

Its been a while but the last time Hamilton and Alonso worked together it didn't work out well,

What Mercedes benefited from and  other teams can't have failed to notice is that the Hamilton/Rosberg partnership, whilst being toxic, worked well as the drivers pushed each other. That doesn't happen in Mercedes at the moment nor Ferrari .. there's an interesting comment piece on the F1 site saying teams should aim to get the best two drivers, ensure they hate each other and let them lose on the rack.

And I'm sorry but Bottas is average. I doubt he'll be driving for Mercedes next year. The look on Woolf's face when Bottas failed to make the most of an opportunity to pass Vettel says it all.

chillidoggy

I doubt Bottas will be driving at all next year. If he gets the boot from Merc, then his options are limited.

Fretwired

chillidoggy said:

I doubt Bottas will be driving at all next year. If he gets the boot from Merc, then his options are limited.

You're probably right as there are some young guns like Lando Norris and Nyck de Vries waiting in the wings.

Lewis is top in FP1 and FP2 but heavy rain is forecast for Shanghai tomorrow although it may have stopped for Q1 the track will still be wet and it will be cool. Could favour the Mercs.

chillidoggy

Did you see the times? The top three were very close.

And Vettel's new Barnet? oh, dear.

Garthy

Fretwired said:

thumpingrug said:

Its been a while but the last time Hamilton and Alonso worked together it didn't work out well,

What Mercedes benefited from and  other teams can't have failed to notice is that the Hamilton/Rosberg partnership, whilst being toxic, worked well as the drivers pushed each other. That doesn't happen in Mercedes at the moment nor Ferrari .. there's an interesting comment piece on the F1 site saying teams should aim to get the best two drivers, ensure they hate each other and let them lose on the rack.

And I'm sorry but Bottas is average. I doubt he'll be driving for Mercedes next year. The look on Woolf's face when Bottas failed to make the most of an opportunity to pass Vettel says it all.

Dr Zetche won't employ Alonso, rates him as an outstanding driver but it was Merc who paid Mclaren's $100m fine and Dr Z holds Alonso responsible for it. Nor will you ever see Alonso and Vettel in the same team.

The driver market is wide open but there's a few options you can rule out. Renault also ruled out Alonso due to being a diva.

PC_Dave

Surely Williams have got to boot the clown that is Stroll out as soon as possible.... he simply can’t drive the car well enough, it’s quite the embarrassment for the team.

Fretwired

Garthy said:

Fretwired said:

thumpingrug said:

Its been a while but the last time Hamilton and Alonso worked together it didn't work out well,

What Mercedes benefited from and  other teams can't have failed to notice is that the Hamilton/Rosberg partnership, whilst being toxic, worked well as the drivers pushed each other. That doesn't happen in Mercedes at the moment nor Ferrari .. there's an interesting comment piece on the F1 site saying teams should aim to get the best two drivers, ensure they hate each other and let them lose on the rack.

And I'm sorry but Bottas is average. I doubt he'll be driving for Mercedes next year. The look on Woolf's face when Bottas failed to make the most of an opportunity to pass Vettel says it all.

Dr Zetche won't employ Alonso, rates him as an outstanding driver but it was Merc who paid Mclaren's $100m fine and Dr Z holds Alonso responsible for it. Nor will you ever see Alonso and Vettel in the same team.

The driver market is wide open but there's a few options you can rule out. Renault also ruled out Alonso due to being a diva.

Why was Alonso responsible? He didn't blow the whistle .. by the time he made threats about his emails Ferrari were in court. Ferrari were tipped off by the guy who photocopied their tech specs.

Garthy

Because the FIA had no evidence until Alonso brought it to their attention. Its why Mclaren were in trouble and why Toyota and Renault weren't.

Fretwired

Garthy said:

Because the FIA had no evidence until Alonso brought it to their attention. Its why Mclaren were in trouble and why Toyota and Renault weren't.

Alonso didn't bring it to the FIA's attention - read the email's and he'd be implicated as he was requesting data. In a heated exchange over Hamilton with Dennis he alluded to them but I've never read anything to say he tipped off the FIA. No team would have touched Alonso again.

Ron told the FIA as Ferrari had employed special investigators as they weren't happy. Ron thought that if he admitted McLaren had used the information they'd get a lesser punishment. As it was most people thought a $100 million fine and a loss of fees was light punishment. A ban would have been devastating.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6995240.stm

Cols

Garthy said:

Because the FIA had no evidence until Alonso brought it to their attention. Its why Mclaren were in trouble and why Toyota and Renault weren't.

Half and half.  After qualifying at the Hungarian GP Alonso confronted Ron Dennis, said he had e-Mail evidence that McLaren had confidential Ferrari data, and if Hamilton wasn’t reined in he’d pass it to the FIA.  Dennis was taken aback and afterwards immediately phoned Max Mosley to let him know of the allegations, adding that he wasn’t aware of any substance to them but wanting to be open.

Afterwards Alonso apologised to Dennis and withdrew the threat, but by then Mosley had got his teeth into it.  The rest, as they say, is history.

A major part of how it all shook out is Max Mosley’s personal dislike of Ron Dennis.  Allegedly he whispered in Dennis’s ear at a press conference after the fine had been announced “It’s £1 million for what you did, and £99 million for being a c***.”

Fretwired

Another good day at the office for Vettel ... Hamilton alongside Mad Max on the grid ... :-)

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

thumpingrug said:

Its been a while but the last time Hamilton and Alonso worked together it didn't work out well,

What Mercedes benefited from and  other teams can't have failed to notice is that the Hamilton/Rosberg partnership, whilst being toxic, worked well as the drivers pushed each other. That doesn't happen in Mercedes at the moment nor Ferrari .. there's an interesting comment piece on the F1 site saying teams should aim to get the best two drivers, ensure they hate each other and let them lose on the rack.

And I'm sorry but Bottas is average. I doubt he'll be driving for Mercedes next year. The look on Woolf's face when Bottas failed to make the most of an opportunity to pass Vettel says it all.

 An average Bottas still won three times last year. How many times has Kimi won for Ferrari? Or outdone his teammate in points? And the average Bottas has just qualified ahead of Hamilton. 

Hamilton and Rosberg did work well but there isn't any doubt that it took a lot of management, much like Webber and Vettel at RBR. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. 

 PC_Dave said:

Surely Williams have got to boot the clown that is Stroll out as soon as possible.... he simply can’t drive the car well enough, it’s quite the embarrassment for the team.

Stroll was only 3 points behind his teammate last year. He has started poorly this year but the situation with sponsorship now and for next year means he can't really be dropped halfway through. 

chillidoggy said:

I doubt Bottas will be driving at all next year. If he gets the boot from Merc, then his options are limited.

Bottas has a good sponsor that was key in him getting the Merc drive. 

http://en.f1i.com/news/269095-bottas-owes-mercedes-drive-finnish-sponsor.html

Even if he gets dropped from Mercedes, other teams would welcome the chance to sign a race-winning driver with a decent sponsor. 

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

thumpingrug said:

Its been a while but the last time Hamilton and Alonso worked together it didn't work out well,

What Mercedes benefited from and  other teams can't have failed to notice is that the Hamilton/Rosberg partnership, whilst being toxic, worked well as the drivers pushed each other. That doesn't happen in Mercedes at the moment nor Ferrari .. there's an interesting comment piece on the F1 site saying teams should aim to get the best two drivers, ensure they hate each other and let them lose on the rack.

And I'm sorry but Bottas is average. I doubt he'll be driving for Mercedes next year. The look on Woolf's face when Bottas failed to make the most of an opportunity to pass Vettel says it all.

 An average Bottas still won three times last year. How many times has Kimi won for Ferrari? Or outdone his teammate in points? And the average Bottas has just qualified ahead of Hamilton. 

Hamilton and Rosberg did work well but there isn't any doubt that it took a lot of management, much like Webber and Vettel at RBR. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. 

 PC_Dave said:

Surely Williams have got to boot the clown that is Stroll out as soon as possible.... he simply can’t drive the car well enough, it’s quite the embarrassment for the team.

Stroll was only 3 points behind his teammate last year. He has started poorly this year but the situation with sponsorship now and for next year means he can't really be dropped halfway through. 

chillidoggy said:

I doubt Bottas will be driving at all next year. If he gets the boot from Merc, then his options are limited.

Bottas has a good sponsor that was key in him getting the Merc drive. 

http://en.f1i.com/news/269095-bottas-owes-mercedes-drive-finnish-sponsor.html

Even if he gets dropped from Mercedes, other teams would welcome the chance to sign a race-winning driver with a decent sponsor. 

Bottas was in the best car last season. Mercedes are on the back foot so Bottas will have to step up. Kimi's an ex-world champ who has upped his game so far this season. The comments about Bottas are coming from various ex-drivers and commentators and the look on Woolf's face watching Bottas tentatively push Vettel at the last race. He should have stuck his car up the inside - if he crashed with Vettel Lewis would have won, if the pass had stuck he'd of won and if he overshot Vettel would have won but he could have said he tried. He looked like a guy who was happy to finish second ahead of Hamilton and nab some points. Mercedes don't seem that convinced as he initially got a one year contract followed by a one year extension. If he was that good they'd have signed him on a long term deal.

Heartfeltdawn

Kimi's upped his game... after four seasons of real underachievement. he's upped his game so much that he's currently fifth in the championship behind this average Finnish bloke. 

The first person you have to beat on the course is your teammate and Kimi's not done that. Consider the points taken by Alonso/Vettel versus Kimi. 

2014    167 versus 55
2015    278 versus 150
2016    212 versus 186
2017    317 versus 215

974 versus 606. Per season that's 243.5 versus 151.5, a 92 point difference. 

So this average Bottas comes to a new team with a teammate who is one of the best drivers ever.. and finishes 58 points behind him, finishing third behind two very good drivers. I'm not claiming that Bottas is in the top bracket of driver: he isn't. But this notion of him having failed when Kimi keeps getting a pass is very odd to me. Some of the comments about Bottas have been hilarious (witness Jolyon Palmer on the Beeb talking about how he'd have handled it: tough words for a bloke with two points finishes in his career).

The bottom line is that he joined a new team, had to get used to a new car, had three wins and four pole positions, and finished third behind two very good drivers and helped his team to secure the Constructors Championship. 

Kimi in four seasons has had one pole position and no wins. Vettel in his time at Ferrari has had 5 pole positions and 10 wins. 

When Michael Schumacher came back, he was past his best but it made sense for his technical expertise and experience to be in that team, and for the greatest German driver in history to be there with a reborn German team. Kimi doesn't make the same case. 

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Kimi's upped his game... after four seasons of real underachievement. he's upped his game so much that he's currently fifth in the championship behind this average Finnish bloke. 

The first person you have to beat on the course is your teammate and Kimi's not done that. Consider the points taken by Alonso/Vettel versus Kimi. 

2014    167 versus 55
2015    278 versus 150
2016    212 versus 186
2017    317 versus 215

974 versus 606. Per season that's 243.5 versus 151.5, a 92 point difference. 

So this average Bottas comes to a new team with a teammate who is one of the best drivers ever.. and finishes 58 points behind him, finishing third behind two very good drivers. I'm not claiming that Bottas is in the top bracket of driver: he isn't. But this notion of him having failed when Kimi keeps getting a pass is very odd to me. Some of the comments about Bottas have been hilarious (witness Jolyon Palmer on the Beeb talking about how he'd have handled it: tough words for a bloke with two points finishes in his career).

The bottom line is that he joined a new team, had to get used to a new car, had three wins and four pole positions, and finished third behind two very good drivers and helped his team to secure the Constructors Championship. 

Kimi in four seasons has had one pole position and no wins. Vettel in his time at Ferrari has had 5 pole positions and 10 wins. 

When Michael Schumacher came back, he was past his best but it made sense for his technical expertise and experience to be in that team, and for the greatest German driver in history to be there with a reborn German team. Kimi doesn't make the same case. 

Kimi - not his fault he had to retire in the last race. He was on for a podium finish. And Ferrari have a number one driver which is Vettel .. Kimi's job is to support Vettel. It's always tough at Ferrari if you are not number one.

Like I said if Bottas was hot why didn't Mercedes give him a long term contract? Last year Hamilton won the championship early and took his foot off the pedal which is why Bottas beat him in Abu Dhabi. Hamilton also had a lot of bad luck early on with penalties and mechanical issues. Bottas is average - he's good in a fast car but he's no Lewis, Max or Daniel. I'd be surprised if he's driving a Merc next year.

Heartfeltdawn

And Mercedes have a number one driver. They allow racing within the team but it is clear who the number one is. 


Hamilton won the Championship in Mexico with two races to go so you could claim that he took his foot off the gas for Abu Dhabi to allow Bottas to come in. But that overlooks Bottas beating him in quali and in the race in Russia and again in Austria (Hammy's grid penalty for Austria still meant Bottas beat him on the track). I don't think the claim for Hamilton having bad luck with mechanical issues stands up as most Ferrari fans could claim bad luck with mechanical issues stopped Vettel from winning the title. Really from Spa onwards it was Hamilton going up a gear, Bottas dropping off a bit, and Ferrari unreliability that brought Hamilton through. 

Now I totally agree that Bottas isn't an Alonso or Hamilton level driver. But I don't understand why there is such a clamour for someone better to go into that Mercedes. Barichello was never a top level driver but he did his role perfectly, and nobody could seriously argue that Ferrari and Schumacher would have done better with a better driver in there ahead of Rubens. For Mercedes as they are, after the fractious Ham-Rosberg scrap, someone a lot calmer like Bottas is no bad thing. 

stickyfiddle

Yup. I really want Ricciardo in a top seat, but if I was in Toto’s postition id want to re-sign Hamilton AND Bottas, and only change that if one wants out.

If Ham goes then you chase Seb or DannyRic, but if Bottas quit (can’t imagine he would), then I’d sooner have a different #2 than Vettel. You want someone who can win but not beat your #1 (but still challenge for the title in an Eddie Irvine kinda way), maybe Hulk or Ocon

Garthy

Heartfeltdawn said:

And Mercedes have a number one driver. They allow racing within the team but it is clear who the number one is. 


Hamilton won the Championship in Mexico with two races to go so you could claim that he took his foot off the gas for Abu Dhabi to allow Bottas to come in. But that overlooks Bottas beating him in quali and in the race in Russia and again in Austria (Hammy's grid penalty for Austria still meant Bottas beat him on the track). I don't think the claim for Hamilton having bad luck with mechanical issues stands up as most Ferrari fans could claim bad luck with mechanical issues stopped Vettel from winning the title. Really from Spa onwards it was Hamilton going up a gear, Bottas dropping off a bit, and Ferrari unreliability that brought Hamilton through. 

Now I totally agree that Bottas isn't an Alonso or Hamilton level driver. But I don't understand why there is such a clamour for someone better to go into that Mercedes. Barichello was never a top level driver but he did his role perfectly, and nobody could seriously argue that Ferrari and Schumacher would have done better with a better driver in there ahead of Rubens. For Mercedes as they are, after the fractious Ham-Rosberg scrap, someone a lot calmer like Bottas is no bad thing. 

Regarding 2017, it wasn't just the Ferrari unreliability that brought Hamilton through to win the title. Ferrari dropped the ball several times over the season such as Silverstone & Japan and Vettel dropped a lot of points in Baku and then an enormous amount in Singapore when Hamilton was the main beneficiary.

Hamilton only beat Vettel by 46 points, in his own hands SV lost 13 points in Baku and even the most pessimistic view would have had Singapore LH 1st, MV 2nd and SV 3rd which is a ten point loss but it's quite likely that the podium would have been the reverse of that so that was a 35 point swing in Hamilton's favour. Consistency won LH the WDC, his only mistake if I remember correctly was in Brazil after the title was already wrapped up.

Heartfeltdawn

stickyfiddle said:

Yup. I really want Ricciardo in a top seat, but if I was in Toto’s postition id want to re-sign Hamilton AND Bottas, and only change that if one wants out.

If Ham goes then you chase Seb or DannyRic, but if Bottas quit (can’t imagine he would), then I’d sooner have a different #2 than Vettel. You want someone who can win but not beat your #1 (but still challenge for the title in an Eddie Irvine kinda way), maybe Hulk or Ocon

Someone who takes points away from your rivals is essential. A #2 who doesn't do that could mean dropping a place in the CC and losing ten to twenty million quid in prize money. 

Heartfeltdawn

Garthy said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

And Mercedes have a number one driver. They allow racing within the team but it is clear who the number one is. 


Hamilton won the Championship in Mexico with two races to go so you could claim that he took his foot off the gas for Abu Dhabi to allow Bottas to come in. But that overlooks Bottas beating him in quali and in the race in Russia and again in Austria (Hammy's grid penalty for Austria still meant Bottas beat him on the track). I don't think the claim for Hamilton having bad luck with mechanical issues stands up as most Ferrari fans could claim bad luck with mechanical issues stopped Vettel from winning the title. Really from Spa onwards it was Hamilton going up a gear, Bottas dropping off a bit, and Ferrari unreliability that brought Hamilton through. 

Now I totally agree that Bottas isn't an Alonso or Hamilton level driver. But I don't understand why there is such a clamour for someone better to go into that Mercedes. Barichello was never a top level driver but he did his role perfectly, and nobody could seriously argue that Ferrari and Schumacher would have done better with a better driver in there ahead of Rubens. For Mercedes as they are, after the fractious Ham-Rosberg scrap, someone a lot calmer like Bottas is no bad thing. 

Regarding 2017, it wasn't just the Ferrari unreliability that brought Hamilton through to win the title. Ferrari dropped the ball several times over the season such as Silverstone & Japan and Vettel dropped a lot of points in Baku and then an enormous amount in Singapore when Hamilton was the main beneficiary.

Hamilton only beat Vettel by 46 points, in his own hands SV lost 13 points in Baku and even the most pessimistic view would have had Singapore LH 1st, MV 2nd and SV 3rd which is a ten point loss but it's quite likely that the podium would have been the reverse of that so that was a 35 point swing in Hamilton's favour. Consistency won LH the WDC, his only mistake if I remember correctly was in Brazil after the title was already wrapped up.

Absolutely. Ferari unreliability wasn't purely mechanical that season and questions over team strategy had been asked in previous seasons. Once Hamilton got on that Spa-Italy run, two consecutive wins, we then had Singapore and Malaysia which were disasters for Ferrari. 

So when people say the Mercedes was the superior car... probably but not one that was completely dominant over the opposition. The greatest area in which the Merc was superior to the Ferrari was reliability.