The F1 thread

Garthy

I’d put LeClerc way above Verstappen. Hamilton is in a completely different sphere altogether. 

Boromedic

It's a tough one and somewhat subjective, I was on the fence about Max but Brazil 2016 was the clincher for me and when I started to get the hype. All other things being equal I'd put them on a par personally, but as they say it's a game of opinions innit?! (Or is that football?!)

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

Garthy said:

I’d put LeClerc way above Verstappen. Hamilton is in a completely different sphere altogether. 

I think that's a bit of a stretch, I think they're all pretty closely matched. I think people's views of Max are still tainted somewhat by his wild, erratic reputation from his first season and a half. He's come a long way since then, and is a far more 'complete' driver now. Remember, Lewis had FIVE YEARS' more experience under his belt than Max in F3/GP2 etc before making the step up to F1. I imagine Lewis may have been every bit as raw as Max was if he'd been thrown in with the sharks at 17.

Leclerc looks every bit the future champion and I'd put him on a par with Max. I'd still favour Lewis out of the 3 if them but that's purely down to his vast experience and the maturity he's developed over the years. 

Garthy

Dontgiveupyourdayjob said:

Garthy said:

I’d put LeClerc way above Verstappen. Hamilton is in a completely different sphere altogether. 

I think that's a bit of a stretch, I think they're all pretty closely matched. I think people's views of Max are still tainted somewhat by his wild, erratic reputation from his first season and a half. He's come a long way since then, and is a far more 'complete' driver now. Remember, Lewis had FIVE YEARS' more experience under his belt than Max in F3/GP2 etc before making the step up to F1. I imagine Lewis may have been every bit as raw as Max was if he'd been thrown in with the sharks at 17.

Leclerc looks every bit the future champion and I'd put him on a par with Max. I'd still favour Lewis out of the 3 if them but that's purely down to his vast experience and the maturity he's developed over the years. 

Exactly, Max wasn't ready for F1 and was wild and erratic for the first 4 years. He's done nearly 100 races and still drives like it is his first season. He has had some amazing drives but he's had dozens of crap ones. LeClerc will crush him as his race entries rack up. Verstappen is very similar to Montoya and he never achieved much either.

sweepy

Montoya didn't do too badly considering the Cars he drove
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Pablo_Montoya

Garthy

sweepy said:

Montoya didn't do too badly considering the Cars he drove
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Pablo_Montoya

The best drivers end up in the best cars.

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

Garthy said:

Exactly, Max wasn't ready for F1 and was wild and erratic for the first 4 years. He's done nearly 100 races and still drives like it is his first season. He has had some amazing drives but he's had dozens of crap ones. LeClerc will crush him as his race entries rack up. Verstappen is very similar to Montoya and he never achieved much either.

Can't say I agree with that, I think Max is far more consistent now than 3 years ago. As good as Leclerc? Who knows, it's early days. Looking forward to finding out though in the next 10 years or so!

sinbaadi

Garthy said:

sweepy said:

Montoya didn't do too badly considering the Cars he drove
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Pablo_Montoya

The best drivers end up in the best cars.

Alonso ended up in mostly the wrong cars.  Undoubtedly one of the best drivers ever in F1.

It's a lottery at the best of times, and average drivers make great cars look less than they are worth, so it's not like we have a perfect benchmark process to determine which cars are the best anyway, but the best drivers do not always end up in the best cars, at all.

Vettel dominated in a RedBull era of dominance, but I think we can now safely say, given his performance against other team mates, that had Hamilton been in the team, or Alonso, or who knows how many others from those seasons, Vettel would have been beaten and the RedBull would have proven to be even stronger still!

Cols

sweepy said:

Montoya didn't do too badly considering the Cars he drove
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Pablo_Montoya

Montoya is one of the greatest losses to F1 I’ve seen.  A fantastically quick swashbuckling driver who ended up in a McLaren team to which he was ill-suited and subsequently left F1 entirely.

It’s one of the great ‘what ifs’ - if Max Mosley hadn’t manipulated the tyre regulations to swing things back in Ferrari’s favour, JPM would very likely been a World Champion for Williams in 2003.  With that, we might not have had the slow decline of Williams, the move of BMW to their own team and subsequently out of the sport entirely, and JPM’s disastrous move to McLaren.

Garthy

sinbaadi said:

Garthy said:

sweepy said:

Montoya didn't do too badly considering the Cars he drove
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Pablo_Montoya

The best drivers end up in the best cars.

Alonso ended up in mostly the wrong cars.  Undoubtedly one of the best drivers ever in F1.

It's a lottery at the best of times, and average drivers make great cars look less than they are worth, so it's not like we have a perfect benchmark process to determine which cars are the best anyway, but the best drivers do not always end up in the best cars, at all.

Vettel dominated in a RedBull era of dominance, but I think we can now safely say, given his performance against other team mates, that had Hamilton been in the team, or Alonso, or who knows how many others from those seasons, Vettel would have been beaten and the RedBull would have proven to be even stronger still!

Alonso fucked himself with his politics. He had the best car in 2005, 2006, equal best in 2007 and should have continued that in 2008 but acted like a fool so spent two years in a Renault. Laughed at Christian Horner when offered a three year deal for 2008-2010 and the RBR won the double in 2010 and perhaps in Alonso's hands may have won an additional title in 2009. Runner up in 2010, 2012 & 2013 to Vettel. Got asked to leave Ferrari for 2015, the year that Hamilton clinched the WDC from Vettel in his old car at Texas, Vettel finished runner up in 2017 & 2018. Despite various vacancies at RBR, Ferrari and Mercedes in 2016, 2017, 2018 & 2019 none of them wanted him because despite his amazing talent he was too much aggro. The only one who considered it was RBR again but Honda said not a chance.

Alonso's would could should is very interesting and a text book case to cooperate.

Fretwired

The RB15 on the dance floor .. ;-)

https://redbullracing.redbull.com/article/sound-synergy

stickyfiddle

Crikey, what a day to unpack! 

Massive F3 crash due to stupid sausage kerbs and another life saved by the Halo. 

Vettel's first Q3 lap should probably be deleted, but that's nothing compared to the clusterfuck at the end. For my money I'd be DQ-ing Hulkenberg Stroll and probably Sainz from the whole of qualifying, as otherwise they don't really get any actual penalty. As much as it was very entertaining this once we don't want it happening again. 

Game on for Leclerc, I hope, for a second win (and first one he can really enjoy) in front of the home crowd.

thumpingrug

That last couple of minutes was farcical.  Jockeying for who is not in the front so that they fail to get a lap in.  Probably a situation thats unique to Monza due to the high speed nature but a bit of a joke to watch.

TimmyO

What an embarrassing kerfuffle. Give them all a 5 place drop just for being an embarrassing mess :-) 

prowla

Maybe they need to elect a pace-setter like the marathon runners do.

stickyfiddle

Reprimands for Hulk, Sainz and Stroll. No direct penalties, which seems a shame, but presumably is because they don't actually have anything in the rulebook that specific prohibits this behaviour. I'm guessing that will be changed for next year (or sooner?)

And Vettel been given the benefit of doubt as they didn't have a clear camera angle to prove he was fully over the line. Which is probably fair, but smacks a little of Ferrari international Assistance.

Cols

That was a complete bloody farce.  Embarrassing to watch.

TimmyO

stickyfiddle said:

And Vettel been given the benefit of doubt as they didn't have a clear camera angle to prove he was fully over the line. Which is probably fair, but smacks a little of Ferrari international Assistance.

I read the judgement wording and laughed out loud - it's like they want you to know he was out but that they darent say so :-) 

sweepy

Yet Albon was out ? , just like old times

prowla

They ripped off their paying fans.

Everybody seemed to know they were in the wrong, but they felt they had to do it anyway.

And Vettel clearly had all 4 wheels off.