The F1 thread

Cols

Fretwired said:

Cols said:

Fretwired said:

Rumour mill .. could Red Bull partner with Cosworth? Licence the Honda F1 engine, rebadge it as a Cosworth engine, and get Cosworth to develop the engine further? Red Bull would effectively have their own engine.

Can’t see it tbh; the idea of releasing their technology to a competitor wouldn’t rest well with Honda.

Maybe Mugen-Honda might be a possibility? 

I don't get the technology bit. F1 engines are no longer relevant in terms of technology for road car manufacturers (which is why VW won't join).

Well - if you’d just spent 1 billion dollars developing an F1 engine, would you fork it over to a motorsport competitor?

Despite Honda claiming the withdrawal from F1 was a result of the transformation of the car industry away from internal combustion engines, they’re still ploughing ahead with their successful and less expensive Indycar engine programme.

Fretwired

Cols said:

Well - if you’d just spent 1 billion dollars developing an F1 engine, would you fork it over to a motorsport competitor?

Despite Honda claiming the withdrawal from F1 was a result of the transformation of the car industry away from internal combustion engines, they’re still ploughing ahead with their successful and less expensive Indycar engine programme.

Indycar is different .. it's far cheaper than F1 and is watched by zillions of Americans. F1's audience is dropping.

No one says you 'fork it over' .. you can sell the engine outright, you can licence it and get a share of the engine sales or you could go into a partnership. Honda say they want to redeploy resources - what if a partner deal were struck that allows Honda and some techies to remain, while another company develops the engine - hence Honda-Cosworth.

It's probably pants, but I can see a day when F1 only has Ferrari engines unless the FIA do something.

Cols

It would be lose-lose for Honda.  Either the licensed engine is unsuccessful - in which case everyone shrugs and says “Well, they didn’t have much to work with” - or it wins, and the licencee gets all the credit.

Honda undoubtedly remember the last time they pulled out of F1, and Brawn GP rose from the ashes and dominated the following season.  They won’t want a repeat of that.

Fretwired

Cols said:

It would be lose-lose for Honda.  Either the licensed engine is unsuccessful - in which case everyone shrugs and says “Well, they didn’t have much to work with” - or it wins, and the licencee gets all the credit.

Honda undoubtedly remember the last time they pulled out of F1, and Brawn GP rose from the ashes and dominated the following season.  They won’t want a repeat of that.

Actually I disagree with that .. don't underestimate the pull of Red Bull - a branding phenomenon. The F1 team wanted to have their own engine .. this could be an opportunity. The Red Bull parent company have bucket loads of cash and a brand that connects with millions of people every day around the globe.  That is something that could be attractive to a carmaker like Honda.

Ross Brawn and Brawn GP was a one-off.

markr76

Fretwired said:

Cols said:

It would be lose-lose for Honda.  Either the licensed engine is unsuccessful - in which case everyone shrugs and says “Well, they didn’t have much to work with” - or it wins, and the licencee gets all the credit.

Honda undoubtedly remember the last time they pulled out of F1, and Brawn GP rose from the ashes and dominated the following season.  They won’t want a repeat of that.

Actually I disagree with that .. don't underestimate the pull of Red Bull - a branding phenomenon. The F1 team wanted to have their own engine .. this could be an opportunity. The Red Bull parent company have bucket loads of cash and a brand that connects with millions of people every day around the globe.  That is something that could be attractive to a carmaker like Honda.

Ross Brawn and Brawn GP was a one-off.

Trouble with Redbull is the fact they always slag off which ever engine they have.  They blamed all their short comings on Renault, before Renault got tired of them. When really it was fun heir car that was the problem. For some reason everyone seems to believe Christian Horner all the time. He’s always saying how good their aero is. How flawless their car is. It’s just the engine. It wasn’t far away from this happening to Honda. With this engine rule change, with only having the 1 engine mode. They’ve lost performance relative to Mercedes and also it appears, Renault. Plus Honda the same as Renault when they were with Redbull, they’ve found they’re not getting any credit at all if Redbull win. 

I know how the teams think. Honda included. I used to work for them. They won’t want anyone else having their designs. What’s to stop say cosworth buying the design. Then publicly saying god this engine is shit. We had to do so much work to improve it. I just can’t see Honda doing that. When I worked for Honda. Even though we were all Honda. The engine dept would never leave the engines at the chassis hq.  The same as Bridgestone or Pirelli won’t leave current tyres with the teams unattended. 

markr76

markr76 said:

Fretwired said:

Cols said:

It would be lose-lose for Honda.  Either the licensed engine is unsuccessful - in which case everyone shrugs and says “Well, they didn’t have much to work with” - or it wins, and the licencee gets all the credit.

Honda undoubtedly remember the last time they pulled out of F1, and Brawn GP rose from the ashes and dominated the following season.  They won’t want a repeat of that.

Actually I disagree with that .. don't underestimate the pull of Red Bull - a branding phenomenon. The F1 team wanted to have their own engine .. this could be an opportunity. The Red Bull parent company have bucket loads of cash and a brand that connects with millions of people every day around the globe.  That is something that could be attractive to a carmaker like Honda.

Ross Brawn and Brawn GP was a one-off.

Trouble with Redbull is the fact they always slag off which ever engine they have.  They blamed all their short comings on Renault, before Renault got tired of them. When really it was fun heir car that was the problem. For some reason everyone seems to believe Christian Horner all the time. He’s always saying how good their aero is. How flawless their car is. It’s just the engine. It wasn’t far away from this happening to Honda. With this engine rule change, with only having the 1 engine mode. They’ve lost performance relative to Mercedes and also it appears, Renault. Plus Honda the same as Renault when they were with Redbull, they’ve found they’re not getting any credit at all if Redbull win. 

I know how the teams think. Honda included. I used to work for them. They won’t want anyone else having their designs. What’s to stop say cosworth buying the design. Then publicly saying god this engine is shit. We had to do so much work to improve it. I just can’t see Honda doing that. When I worked for Honda. Even though we were all Honda. The engine dept would never leave the engines at the chassis hq.  The same as Bridgestone or Pirelli won’t leave current tyres with the teams unattended. 

I could be wrong though. Companies can change their minds. 

My personal opinion is that Redbull will have to go back with Renault. Renault have already stated they’d happily provide Them with engines again. Although I’m sure there would have to be some apologies before hand, and a promise Horner would hold his tongue! 

As you say Redbull are an appealing company to be involved with. They are down with the kids so to speak. Not sure why! But they are. If I was to have a guess. I’d say Mercedes as a company would have even considered working with them. I doub that will happen though as we already supply 3 other teams and there is only so many engines we have the capacity to build. 

For the likes of cosworth to come in now, they’d be so far behind with the tech. It would take ages to catch up.
As much as the romantic in me would like to see the current engines scrapped in favour of the cheaper to build v8 engines. I think the current world climate won’t allow it. The sport would alienate itself further. Instead we have to be seen to be at least trying to make everything cheaper. I’m sure when it’s possible to have a fully electric formula that can race for the same distance, on proper circuits and with the same performance as the current cars. That’s what will happen. 

I think it could be good if they had a quick release battery pack switch during pit stops, similar to the old refuelling. As long as it was safe to do so for the pit crew. 

Obviously I’m the same as most of you, I loved the old v10’s. The idea of going electric is shite!! Especially as I don’t think it’s the way forward for cars full stop. It’s carbon footprint is too high. But it will get better I’m guessing and it will become the norm whether we like it or not.

chillidoggy

Maybe the answer to Red Bull slagging off their engine supplier is to put Horner out to grass. He seemed to be behind the vast majority of the slagging.

markr76

chillidoggy said:

Maybe the answer to Red Bull slagging off their engine supplier is to put Horner out to grass. He seemed to be behind the vast majority of the slagging.

I’m not a fan of Horners. But he’s very good at playing the game!

Fretwired

markr76 said:

Obviously I’m the same as most of you, I loved the old v10’s. The idea of going electric is shite!! Especially as I don’t think it’s the way forward for cars full stop. It’s carbon footprint is too high. But it will get better I’m guessing and it will become the norm whether we like it or not.

If F1 wants car manufacturers to be part of F1 then it will have to go electric. The tech isn't there at the moment but when it is F1 could once again be attractive for companies like Honda and may entice the VW Group.

I take your points about Honda but they will have spunked $1 billion up the wall for what? A development partnership could yield them ongoing benefits in terms of some cash and a presence in F1 and a brand attachment to Red Bull. Cosworth has tuned and rebuilt/redesigned other manufacturers engines - they had a long association with Ford and worked with Mercedes etc.

But if I were the FIA I'd be worried. Car sales in the EU have been hit by Covid so could Renault eventually bail out. They are losing a lot of money and the French state is a shareholder - it may not see much value in F1 beyond 2021 if car sales remain flat.

Mercedes could be supplying every team bar Ferrari with engines .. :-)

markr76

Fretwired said:

markr76 said:

Obviously I’m the same as most of you, I loved the old v10’s. The idea of going electric is shite!! Especially as I don’t think it’s the way forward for cars full stop. It’s carbon footprint is too high. But it will get better I’m guessing and it will become the norm whether we like it or not.

If F1 wants car manufacturers to be part of F1 then it will have to go electric. The tech isn't there at the moment but when it is F1 could once again be attractive for companies like Honda and may entice the VW Group.

I take your points about Honda but they will have spunked $1 billion up the wall for what? A development partnership could yield them ongoing benefits in terms of some cash and a presence in F1 and a brand attachment to Red Bull. Cosworth has tuned and rebuilt/redesigned other manufacturers engines - they had a long association with Ford and worked with Mercedes etc.

But if I were the FIA I'd be worried. Car sales in the EU have been hit by Covid so could Renault eventually bail out. They are losing a lot of money and the French state is a shareholder - it may not see much value in F1 beyond 2021 if car sales remain flat.

Mercedes could be supplying every team bar Ferrari with engines .. :-)

If Honda were to let anyone manufacture their engines under license. The only company would be Mugen motorsport would be my guess. 

The FIA can’t do anything about world car sales though. But steps are being taken to make f1 cheaper as I’ve said before. I think Renault have got the current situation on their mind. Could be why they’ve changed the name of the team from next year. I think Renault are more interested now though as their engine is probably better than the Ferrari at the minute!!

Fretwired

markr76 said:

If Honda were to let anyone manufacture their engines under license. The only company would be Mugen motorsport would be my guess. 

The FIA can’t do anything about world car sales though. But steps are being taken to make f1 cheaper as I’ve said before. I think Renault have got the current situation on their mind. Could be why they’ve changed the name of the team from next year. I think Renault are more interested now though as their engine is probably better than the Ferrari at the minute!!

Could be Mugen due to their links with Honda. However, Mugen has said in the past that they have no interest in F1 - that could be designing their own engine - taking an existing Honda engine might be attractive. Cosworth has said it is interested in F1 and I think I'm right that they had talks with the FIA and Red Bull in 2016/17.

And whilst the FIA can't do anything about car sales it needs a plan in the event Renault pull out. It needs to get another engine manufacturer on board or revisit Bernie's idead for an F1 engine.

As it stands Red Bull will have to take a Renault engine.

PC_Dave

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/54468026

Whoops... "A member of the Mercedes team has tested positive for coronavirus before this weekend’s Eifel Grand Prix.

Mercedes said the team would not reveal the identity of the person affected but it is not one of the two drivers, Lewis Hamilton and Valtteri Bottas."

Cols

No First Practice - the medical helicopter has been grounded by fog.  Baby Schumacher will have to wait for his first Grand Prix appearance.

Second Practice is also looking doubtful.

Fretwired

It's dumb to come to Nuremberg in October. It has been known to snow. Sunday's race should be interesting as the track will be cold and there's a chance of rain.

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

Another one bites the dust...

BBC News - Eifel Grand Prix: Second Mercedes team member tests positive for Covid-19

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/54468026

Cols

Fretwired said:

It's dumb to come to Nuremberg in October. It has been known to snow. Sunday's race should be interesting as the track will be cold and there's a chance of rain.

Hope Pirelli remembered to bring the studded tyres.

Fretwired

Cols said:

Fretwired said:

It's dumb to come to Nuremberg in October. It has been known to snow. Sunday's race should be interesting as the track will be cold and there's a chance of rain.

Hope Pirelli remembered to bring the studded tyres.

They have actually ... studded tyres .. :-)

Fretwired

Should be OK for FP3 and Quali tomorrow but will be cold .. could be interesting.

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

Bit of a sickener if you were one of the fans that bought a ticket and travelled to the circuit for today. Cold, wet miserable, zero on-track action. Sickener for Mick Schumacher and Callum Ilott too.

Finger's crossed for the rest of the weekend!

pigface

Fretwired said:

It's dumb to come to Nuremberg in October. It has been known to snow. Sunday's race should be interesting as the track will be cold and there's a chance of rain.

Nürburg. Nuremberg is a different place.