The F1 thread

Fretwired

markr76 said:

Unfortunately having standardised parts doesn’t seem to sit well with a lot of the teams. Not sure why. But it’s never been the way of F1.

I'm not an engineer but I'd have thought having the basics of an engine that teams could customise would work - it would reduce costs but allow teams to tinker and innovate. F1 risks the sport collapsing if Renault and Mercedes leave.

markr76

sinbaadi said:

markr76 said:

markr76 said:

sinbaadi said:

Again, here we are in a position where the sport is in jeopardy because of frankly stupid and wasteful expense developing engine technology, to the extent that manufacturers are driven out of the sport.  The fact that it "has to be relevant" to their road car engine technology really sums up the problem of the split personality that F1 has.

Manufacturers should be chomping at the bit to participate.  It's supposed to be entertainment!  It's supposed to be a sport.  If the FIA had told the teams that they have to secretly all use the same engines, and save themselves billions, and we the spectators were in total ignorance of that fact, would the racing be any less entertaining at all?!  Wouldn't it arguably have been better for the last 7 or so seasons?  Would we rather have seen more performance disparity?

F1 needs to wake up and make itself a much more attractive place for manufacturers to spend some money on what should be the pinnacle of competition motor-racing.

So if you were on the board at Renault, Mercedes or Ferrari and you were told you had to use someone else’s engine, you’d agree to that? Watch an engine blow up on track, that’s inferior to one you could build and happily put your logo on the engine cover of the car? I don’t think any of them would agree to that. 

There are changes coming from F1. The biggest is the massive budget cuts that are coming. 

As for the engines who knows what the future holds. At a guess I think eventually F1 will become electric. But that’s along way away. 

Hopefully capping the budgets and making the sport cheaper will make it more attractive. 

I think Honda are their own worst enemies. Jumping in and out of the sport is not the way to remain competitive. You’re just playing catch-up all the time. Honda leaving isn’t only about the company concentrating on electric engines. That would have been a factor. But it was will mainly have been their share holders kicking off at the lack of profits. The same as the last time they jumped. Something I had to live through!

I’m not having a go by the way. I guess I’m just saying people should put themselves in the position of the guys at the board levels of the manufacturers. The ones who are writing the cheques. There’s a lot of responsibility there.

"Hey guys, want to spend tens of millions on engine development?  Hundreds of millions?  With little relevance to your road car development direction?"

"Or.... why don't we all work together to develop an engine for the series which you can put your logo on and maybe design the air box or manifolds or head cover and whatnot yourselves so you all feel nice and warm about it?"

The very point is to keep manufacturer teams in the sport.  I'm not surprised Honda are getting out of it, again.  Why would any of the board see any value at all in continuing to spend all of that money?   And so too will Renault and Mercedes, it's just a matter of time, unless something changes.

It's just antiquated thinking from a bygone era, in the same way as some people think that regulations should be relaxed and car design innovation be rewarded more.  This isn't the 1950s!

The reason the manufacturers don’t want to change the engine formula at the minute is because it cost so much to develop in the first place. They want the shelf life to last a bit longer. Before they have to spend millions on R and D on a new set of regulation designs. 

Sure the latest formula is expensive. But it was what the world was asking for in the first place. To make the sport greener. 

Which it has, but now everyone has jumped on the all electric bandwagon. Which isn’t the way forward long term. As the carbon footprint isn’t as good as it should be. 

Mercedes get a lot of stick for these regulations, but it was Renault who pushed for it in the first place. Plus Honda said they’d return to F1 if the hydrid route was taken. Mercedes didn’t want to change over particularly as we already had one of the best engines, if not the best in the v10 and v8 class. 

Problem Honda had was only as an engine supplier. If Redbull won a race, Honda didn’t get the recognition and exposure, Redbull did. Same for Renault. That’s why they became a full team again. 

Remember it’s not F1’s fault that the world has turned shit at the minute. But changes are coming in F1. The teams budgets are going to be nearly halved.

Cols

F1 is currently fundamentally unappealing to any new engine manufacturer.  The cost of developing a V6 turbo hybrid are simply enormous; up to the end of 2018, the Mercedes engine division had spent $1.2 billion since they started development of the current engine.  They continue to spend about £190 million per year.  Any manufacturer planning on winning the world championship has to commit to that level of expenditure, in an era comprehensively dominated by one team.

Manufacturers can talk all they want about how F1 is important for technology transfer to road cars, but ultimately they expect to get publicity and sell more cars.  That won’t happen if they’re not competitive, and you’ll need to sell a lot of cars to make back $1 billion.

markr76

Cols said:

F1 is currently fundamentally unappealing to any new engine manufacturer.  The cost of developing a V6 turbo hybrid are simply enormous; up to the end of 2018, the Mercedes engine division had spent $1.2 billion since they started development of the current engine.  They continue to spend about £190 million per year.  Any manufacturer planning on winning the world championship has to commit to that level of expenditure, in an era comprehensively dominated by one team.

Manufacturers can talk all they want about how F1 is important for technology transfer to road cars, but ultimately they expect to get publicity and sell more cars.  That won’t happen if they’re not competitive, and you’ll need to sell a lot of cars to make back $1 billion.

It’s not just that. Apparently it seems to matter to the car buying public if the brand has good racing pedigree. Renault reported an increase in car sales when they won their world championships and were a top team in f1. There was a large drop off after they pulled out of the sport. Mercedes have seen an increase in the brand since being back in f1.

markr76

markr76 said:

Cols said:

F1 is currently fundamentally unappealing to any new engine manufacturer.  The cost of developing a V6 turbo hybrid are simply enormous; up to the end of 2018, the Mercedes engine division had spent $1.2 billion since they started development of the current engine.  They continue to spend about £190 million per year.  Any manufacturer planning on winning the world championship has to commit to that level of expenditure, in an era comprehensively dominated by one team.

Manufacturers can talk all they want about how F1 is important for technology transfer to road cars, but ultimately they expect to get publicity and sell more cars.  That won’t happen if they’re not competitive, and you’ll need to sell a lot of cars to make back $1 billion.

It’s not just that. Apparently it seems to matter to the car buying public if the brand has good racing pedigree. Renault reported an increase in car sales when they won their world championships and were a top team in f1. There was a large drop off after they pulled out of the sport. Mercedes have seen an increase in the brand since being back in f1.

I’m not defending the hybrid era in any way by the way. I much preferred the older v10 engines. I’d be more interested in looking back that way and using bio fuel as someone suggested earlier. Or something like that. Work out a way to make that greener and more efficient. 

As I’ve said in the last few posts though. F1 is well aware of the problems it has at the minute. They are not being ignored. F1 does need the manufacturers involved. If all manufacturers walked away you’d be left with a championship that Ferrari won year in year out. Maybe that’s what some people want though. 

Mercedes dominance will come to an end as all periods of domination do. 

We’ve been told when it does Mercedes want to stick around as that’s the only way to be thought of in the same esteem as Ferrari. 

Majorscale

@markr76 ;

I haven’t heard anything about Mercedes’s DAS system since the start of the season. Is it still being used during races?

markr76

Majorscale said:

@markr76 ;

I haven’t heard anything about Mercedes’s DAS system since the start of the season. Is it still being used during races?

I believe so. Although like you say, it doesn’t seem to get mentioned anymore. They’ve not mentioned it at work either. 

I do know there’s been a lot of worry with the tyres from Pirelli. With blowouts etc. 

They’ve been gradually increasing tyre pressures at some races.  So we might have lessened the use of the das. The das is mainly used to generate heat in the tires I believe. It’s funny we get so much info at work. Sometimes I miss things or don’t take much notice.

Cols

After all the fuss made about DAS, I believe it just ended up being used in qualifying to generate heat in the front tyres by adjusting the toe to make the tyres scrub in a straight line.

Judging by the 10/10 clean sweep in qualifying so far, it’s worked pretty well - along with everything else on the Merc.

markr76

Cols said:

After all the fuss made about DAS, I believe it just ended up being used in qualifying to generate heat in the front tyres by adjusting the toe to make the tyres scrub in a straight line.

Judging by the 10/10 clean sweep in qualifying so far, it’s worked pretty well - along with everything else on the Merc.

Our theory at the start in 2012/3 when we were planning our championship fight. Was we noticed if you rely too much on trick car parts they can be banned. Like the Redbull blown diffuser. The Brawn double diffuser etc.

On the flip side if you get the development in on a trick idea before anyone else has thought of it. You can optimise it and iron out the problem, so everyone else who’s trying it is playing catch up. 

It’s better to have a solid car throughout. That way it’s hard for the powers that be changing the rules and stopping you. 

Majorscale

Mark, big thanks, I really enjoy and appreciate your insights. I’m a big Merc F1 and Lewis fan so it’s really interesting to get your views on things from an inside-the-team perspective.

I also tire of the continuous Lewis bashing (not so much here, although it happens, but across the media). Anyone that gifted, who lives in what is essentially an alternate reality to the vast majority of us, is not always going to appear the most grounded all the time. By and large he seems a decent guy.

I’d also like to see George Russell in the team. Bottas is a safe choice but it’s time to mix things up.

Anyway, thanks again.

Fretwired

Marco has been quoted as saying Red Bull is not quitting F1. Renault has said they would be happy to comply with an FIA request to supply engines to Red Bull. So Renault and Red Bull look like they'll be partners again - any port in a storm.

Fretwired

How things used to be .. amazing picture of the Ferrari team preparing cars at Reims in 1966 in a paddock .. with grass.

markr76

Fretwired said:

How things used to be .. amazing picture of the Ferrari team preparing cars at Reims in 1966 in a paddock .. with grass.

A simpler time!
The smoking while working on the engine in these older pics always make me laugh. I can picture the health and safety guys at work these days freaking out about it.

Fretwired

Rumour mill .. could Red Bull partner with Cosworth? Licence the Honda F1 engine, rebadge it as a Cosworth engine, and get Cosworth to develop the engine further? Red Bull would effectively have their own engine.

markr76

Fretwired said:

Rumour mill .. could Red Bull partner with Cosworth? Licence the Honda F1 engine, rebadge it as a Cosworth engine, and get Cosworth to develop the engine further? Red Bull would effectively have their own engine.

That depends on Honda wanting another company to see their product/tech.  I can’t see it myself.

Fretwired

markr76 said:

Fretwired said:

Rumour mill .. could Red Bull partner with Cosworth? Licence the Honda F1 engine, rebadge it as a Cosworth engine, and get Cosworth to develop the engine further? Red Bull would effectively have their own engine.

That depends on Honda wanting another company to see their product/tech.  I can’t see it myself.

Cosworth doesn't work for mainstream car manufacturers (they tweak engines for Aston Martin) which are heading off in the electric/hybrid direction. I bet the tech isn't that useable. Besides, Honda could always protect it from reuse outside F1 in an agreement and could insist on a Honda-Cosworth name so their brand is still connected to F1. It could also help with Honda's finances.

If you were Horner would you want Renault or Ferrari power? Besides, it might suit the FIA to have another engine manufacturer like Cosworth on board.

Cosworth was linked to Red Bull at one-tie but decided designing an engine from scratch would be too expensive - they also looked at how Honda was struggling and didn't do that well last time they entered F1.

markr76

Fretwired said:

markr76 said:

Fretwired said:

Rumour mill .. could Red Bull partner with Cosworth? Licence the Honda F1 engine, rebadge it as a Cosworth engine, and get Cosworth to develop the engine further? Red Bull would effectively have their own engine.

That depends on Honda wanting another company to see their product/tech.  I can’t see it myself.

Cosworth doesn't work for mainstream car manufacturers (they tweak engines for Aston Martin) which are heading off in the electric/hybrid direction. I bet the tech isn't that useable. Besides, Honda could always protect it from reuse outside F1 in an agreement and could insist on a Honda-Cosworth name so their brand is still connected to F1. It could also help with Honda's finances.

If you were Horner would you want Renault or Ferrari power? Besides, it might suit the FIA to have another engine manufacturer like Cosworth on board.

Cosworth was linked to Red Bull at one-tie but decided designing an engine from scratch would be too expensive - they also looked at how Honda was struggling and didn't do that well last time they entered F1.

Who knows what will happen. I personally think Redbull will go back with Renault in the short term. I may be wrong. But the only way they could get one of our engines is if we dropped one of our customers. 

Cols

Fretwired said:

Rumour mill .. could Red Bull partner with Cosworth? Licence the Honda F1 engine, rebadge it as a Cosworth engine, and get Cosworth to develop the engine further? Red Bull would effectively have their own engine.

Can’t see it tbh; the idea of releasing their technology to a competitor wouldn’t rest well with Honda.

Maybe Mugen-Honda might be a possibility? 

Fretwired

Cols said:

Fretwired said:

Rumour mill .. could Red Bull partner with Cosworth? Licence the Honda F1 engine, rebadge it as a Cosworth engine, and get Cosworth to develop the engine further? Red Bull would effectively have their own engine.

Can’t see it tbh; the idea of releasing their technology to a competitor wouldn’t rest well with Honda.

Maybe Mugen-Honda might be a possibility? 

I don't get the technology bit. F1 engines are no longer relevant in terms of technology for road car manufacturers (which is why VW won't join). So as it stands Mercedes will probably have another two seasons of dominance. The FIA's problem is going forward will any road car manufacturer want to be seen in F1? Which would leave Ferrari.

In any case, I'm sure Marko has thought about this - Red Bull's pockets are deep so who knows maybe there's a deal to be done somewhere which keeps the Honda brand in F1 whilst reducing costs and releasing resources for Honda's road car research programme.

Fretwired

This is interesting for the Mercedes geeks ... :-)