The F1 thread

thumpingrug

sinbaadi said:

stickyfiddle said:

sinbaadi said:

thumpingrug said:

Im a huge fan of LH, but even detractors would have to accept that was a masterful race.  those tyres at the end. Incredible way to take the title.  There really can be no doubt that Lewis is the best driver there has ever been.

If he went to Redbull and smoked Verstappen, then maybe that's a more reasonable claim.  Or if he went to Ferrari and beat LeClerc.  Or if he went and won in Indy car and wrc and at LeMans.

Unfortunately I'm with Lando on this.  Lewis is without a doubt brilliant, but F1 is not a fair fight and he does not have 3 competitors on most weekends, let alone 19.

Rosberg pushed him close.  There's no doubt that Verstappen would, and in one season Lewis could go from goat to zero, but as I have already said, he's just playing the game really really well.  We're the ones trying to make impossible comparisons, he just keeps winning and so he should!

Max had the better car today but spun multiple times. He's super quick on a good day but still not on Hamilton's level over a season. Lewis has consistently shown the kind of maturity Max can only dream of.

I think having a performance advantage often bordering on the ridiculous is probably a good way to settle a driver down somewhat.

But that wasn't the case today.  Performance advantages were nullified by the track conditions.  Max showed he was not as skilful as Lewis at handling the car in the conditions.   We could argue this back and forth all night.  I disagree with your premise.  Lewis has won repeatedly over many seasons often when he has not had the best car.  

roundthebend

I'm not a fan (or hater) of Hamilton. I've only this year started paying attention to F1 and today's race was superb viewing. Hamilton's drive was spectacular in being unspectacular whilst the conditions were changing and the other drivers were doing all sorts. I've got to take my hat off to him. Vettel too, though I felt sorry for Leclerc.

Verstappen is frustratingly immature. When he tried to pass Perez at high speed I was sure he'd lose it. I suppose that's why he's also so good, but he just needs to learn where the line is for being over aggressive.

To think I've ignored the sport as "a procession" for so long.

I'm not sure Hamilton has had the competition the same as other multiple champions, but that's not his fault. His win today showed character and skill so I don't begrudge him, and a fantastic way to win the championship. Can't wait for the next race, and next season.

stickyfiddle

@roundthebend Yep. This season has actually been ace because the teams can't just throw more bodies at every problem and we've had a bunch of new tracks and some chaos from running races outside the usual 25-30C ambient temperatures that the cars are generally optimised for. 

As for Lewis, *every* champion ends up in the best cars. Senna and Prost both dominated at McLaren and Prost then dominated in the unbeatable Williams. Brawn & Todt gave Schumacher the world to get him to his 7 titles. Even Fangio and Moss had the best car (also Mercedes) back in the 50's, followed by Hill & Clark in the Lotuses in the 60s. 

I don't think anyone is arguing Max isn't quick and ruthless, but that isn't enough to win championships. If he doesn't mature I can see Leclerc beating him to titles as he seems to have the same humility and desire to fix problems rather than throwing toys about when he doesn't get his way. We just need Ferrari to build a proper race car.

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

Lewis is sensational. Clearly the best driver of the modern era. I just wish there was someone in the sister Mercedes who can push him a bit harder a la Nico Rosberg.

He won the title in incredible style yesterday, but truth is he could have limped round to a mediocre points finish and still been crowned champ. Bottas was absolutely pathetic yesterday. Somehow managed to look the worst driver on the grid despite having one of the greatest cars in history underneath him. Useless! 

Boromedic

I get the suggestion that having someone closer to Lewis in the other car would be better for us spectators, absolutely. The thing is as a team it's a nightmare and far easier to manage with a clear leader and a decent driver who won't cause friction.

F1 history proves that teams will prefer this as it helps the team move forward rather than cause divisions. Prost Vs Senna, Lewis Vs Alonso, Lewis and Nico, Vettel vs Webber all showed this. Mercedes must be a nicer work place now since Bottas joined and he scores enough to make the constructors title easy enough. So with that in mind, I can see why Red Bull and Mercedes ensure their clear number one driver isn't sufficiently under threat to cause too many issues. 

Would I love to see Max, Lewis, Seb, Dani Ric and Alonso in the same cars fighting it out, absolutely. It will never happen though so I don't think about it, history is littered with drivers that were good enough to be champions if they were in better cars, or had the rub of the green. However the consistently fast drivers, who can win in shit cars or in tough conditions, end up in the right place especially those who are easier to work with. That's why Lewis is at Merc, and it was still a gamble to go there in the first place, it paid off but no one really knew it would. 

I also agree with Mike above, Schumacher, Senna and Prost had a performance advantage when they won titles, Piquet did before that, Lauda did, etc. they get their chance in those cars as they were the best at the time, same as Lewis. In a sport like F1 the car and team always matter, but that doesn't take away from the great achievements of an exceptional driver. He is the GOAT for me, for many reasons.

sinbaadi

I think that all I'm trying to say is that valid objective comparisons in F1 are very very limited.  Whether driver a would beat driver b if they were in the same car is genuinely really difficult to say.

Hamilton beat Button mostly during the Redbull dominated era, but it was hardly a thrashing, and there was a season where Button scored more points if I recall correctly.  

The sheer unarguable dominance of Mercedes during the hybrid era hasn't handed him titles on a plate, but it has meant that he is one of two drivers each season that has all the opportunity (and pressure!) to win it.   

Nobody would be brave enough to suggest that Rosberg would definitely have kept winning titles, but he could have, he won one so why not.  This is how easily comparisons are skewed, because I doubt that anyone would say that Rosberg would be even the second best driver on the grid today if he had stayed in F1, particularly if he was in a Renault or something!!  It's all relative and comparing the current field of drivers across a single season is impossible, let alone across eras!  

stickyfiddle

I still think Rosberg is really underrated. Obviously not on Hamilton's level over a career, but he beat Schumacher and is the only teammate to beat Hamilton to a title (also I think only one of 2 teammates to ever beat him on points through Hamilton's 14 seasons, together with JB). If Nico had almost anyone but Lewis as a teammate he'd have wiped the floor with them.

Boromedic

There is kind of a simple answer to this, Rosberg won his one title because Lewis suffered a very unusual engine failure in Malaysia (one which concerned Mercedes enough that they had to make changes across all their engines and teams) whilst dominating the race. If Lewis had won there he would now be winning his eighth title. That's the luck that goes against all the driver's at some point. He ran Lewis closer than Bottas does but the reason he isn't in the same class as Lewis is the same reason Seb isn't. Lewis is fast in any car and in all conditions, same as Schumacher, Alonso, Senna etc. Nico wasn't.

That consistency is something the greats all have from any era, the comparisons across a season or eras are always moot for many reasons, but it's been the same throughout F1, it's an individual team sport which makes it unique in itself. Still doesn't stop the fact that most people, myself included thought that Schumacher's record was unbeatable. I am also a massive Schumacher fan and loved his period of dominance, some of his laps and driving were simply amazing. Lewis is the same, he also isn't Dick Dastardly! 

axisus

Hamilton is clearly a brilliant driver, and congrats to him on his achievements, but F1 I would say is 95% about being in the best car. Both Schumacher and Hamilton always seem to be in the best car. Vettel won in the best car. Button won in the best car etc etc

It is what it is, but I heard talk today of Lewis being our greatest ever sportsman, but I don't buy that at all. Yes, he is brilliant, and his brilliance has got him the best car, but the best car is the required catalyst that gives him his victories.

Cols

Am I correct that Hamilton switched to inters on lap 8 and ran to the end?  Bloody awesome if true.

dazzajl

I've never been a Hamilton fan. I've always seen a very fast boy who knows just what to say to the media and public but very quick to show its not how he actually feels. He's always been incredibly fast and exciting to watch but I think this year he's been working at a level higher than ever. Of course the car is supreme, again but his cool head and experience has really shown this year. Whenever circumstances conspire to add pressure, like only getting one late run in Q3, or stop and go penalties, he calmly gets on with the job and always delivers. I cant think of a single time he's lost points or position due to his own error this year?

Also this year I've seen less of that arrogant boy, pretending to be humble and much more a man that's comfortable with who he is and will speak his mind. At this rate he might have completely won me over by the time he lands his 10th championship. 

sammysaber

Cols said:

Am I correct that Hamilton switched to inters on lap 8 and ran to the end?  Bloody awesome if true.

Indeed - all below:

ESBlonde

Cols said:

Am I correct that Hamilton switched to inters on lap 8 and ran to the end?  Bloody awesome if true.

The pictures of his tyres when he pulled into P1 winners showed excessive wear, Vettel was beside him and had done little more than half the laps, but his tyres looked as bad if not worse! Merc called on Hammy to Pit because his lead was such that he could get out in front (29 secs?). But of course that assumes this wasn't the one day a nut doesn't go on cross threaded

skullfunkerry

Yep, it's definitely all in the fact that Lewis has the best car. Anyone could win in that Mercedes, that's why yesterday Bottas did so w... oh

dazzajl

skullfunkerry said:

Yep, it's definitely all in the fact that Lewis has the best car. Anyone could win in that Mercedes, that's why yesterday Bottas did so w... oh

I do really feel for Bottas. He’s very talented and seems really likeable. He went to Merc with all the expected optimism and talk of relishing the challenge etc. And he’s had all the wind and belief completely knocked out of him. 

stickyfiddle

skullfunkerry said:

Yep, it's definitely all in the fact that Lewis has the best car. Anyone could win in that Mercedes, that's why yesterday Bottas did so w... oh

To give Bottas an ounce of credit, he had damage. But he still came 14th. With or without damage, Lewis was peerless yesterday.

fretmeister

Cols said:

Am I correct that Hamilton switched to inters on lap 8 and ran to the end?  Bloody awesome if true.

Tyres...

Cols

fretmeister said:

Cols said:

Am I correct that Hamilton switched to inters on lap 8 and ran to the end?  Bloody awesome if true.

Tyres...

Christ, they’re looking a bit secondhand.

boogieman

axisus said:

Hamilton is clearly a brilliant driver, and congrats to him on his achievements, but F1 I would say is 95% about being in the best car. Both Schumacher and Hamilton always seem to be in the best car. Vettel won in the best car. Button won in the best car etc etc

It is what it is, but I heard talk today of Lewis being our greatest ever sportsman, but I don't buy that at all. Yes, he is brilliant, and his brilliance has got him the best car, but the best car is the required catalyst that gives him his victories.

Chicken and egg though isn’t it? He’s in the best car AND winning stuff because he’s simply the best driver on the grid. Bottas proves that in every race : the best car doesn’t guarantee you wins or championships, it needs the extra something that Hamilton clearly has. 

axisus

boogieman said:

axisus said:

Hamilton is clearly a brilliant driver, and congrats to him on his achievements, but F1 I would say is 95% about being in the best car. Both Schumacher and Hamilton always seem to be in the best car. Vettel won in the best car. Button won in the best car etc etc

It is what it is, but I heard talk today of Lewis being our greatest ever sportsman, but I don't buy that at all. Yes, he is brilliant, and his brilliance has got him the best car, but the best car is the required catalyst that gives him his victories.

Chicken and egg though isn’t it? He’s in the best car AND winning stuff because he’s simply the best driver on the grid. Bottas proves that in every race : the best car doesn’t guarantee you wins or championships, it needs the extra something that Hamilton clearly has. 

Yeah, he's the best driver, but stick him in any other car on the grid and he probably ain't world champ. Throughout his career he usually just has to be the best out of 2 drivers. He 'usually' wins that one ....