The F1 thread

Teetonetal

axisus said:

boogieman said:

axisus said:

Hamilton is clearly a brilliant driver, and congrats to him on his achievements, but F1 I would say is 95% about being in the best car. Both Schumacher and Hamilton always seem to be in the best car. Vettel won in the best car. Button won in the best car etc etc

It is what it is, but I heard talk today of Lewis being our greatest ever sportsman, but I don't buy that at all. Yes, he is brilliant, and his brilliance has got him the best car, but the best car is the required catalyst that gives him his victories.

Chicken and egg though isn’t it? He’s in the best car AND winning stuff because he’s simply the best driver on the grid. Bottas proves that in every race : the best car doesn’t guarantee you wins or championships, it needs the extra something that Hamilton clearly has. 

Yeah, he's the best driver, but stick him in any other car on the grid and he probably ain't world champ. Throughout his career he usually just has to be the best out of 2 drivers. He 'usually' wins that one ....

Would argue that Hamilton's greatest strength has been getting the right car at the right time. He has maximised his potential, which is all you can do.

chillidoggy

I see Max is moaning about his front wing being 7 degrees out of line. Seriously? How can they get it THAT wrong?

goldtop

It's also possible that one of the reasons that the Mercedes is a winning car in his hands is because of the feedback he has given the engineers.

ISTR, Schuey gaining a similar reputation when he went to Ferrari.

Cols

I think that’s doing the 1500 staff working in the Mercedes F1 and engine teams to design, develop, manufacture and run the cars over the past 7 years a bit of a disservice.  Hamilton has been given a marvellous instrument by a fantastic team and has done a great job of using it to its fullest extent.

On the point of having the gift of ensuring he’s in the right car at the right time; it’s not difficult when “the right car” has been the one he’s already in since 2014.  

Before that Red Bull were dominant from 2010-2013, and Brawn owned 2009.  One might argue he arrived in F1 in 2007 driving the best car; this carried on to 2008, after which he spent the next 5 years being fortunate enough to be driving cars which were capable of winning races before the current period of total dominance by Mercedes.

He’s absolutely maximised his opportunities, but it’s important to recognise that he’s the fortunate spearhead of a fantastic team effort.

chillidoggy

Indeed.

Which leaves me wondering how many other sports there are apart from Motorsports where the equipment used means the difference between winning or losing.

PC_Dave

I'm no Hamilton love, far from it, but it can't be just down to the car. Bottas is in the same machinery and he was pathetic that weekend.

rolls1392

chillidoggy said:

Indeed.

Which leaves me wondering how many other sports there are apart from Motorsports where the equipment used means the difference between winning or losing.

I compete in equestrian sport and often a large cheque book is an easy way to win. It's the difference between a dobbin and a superstar horse, but when you are as crap as I am it doesn't matter. 

fretmeister

As always - in 30 years time it won't matter.
Only the stats will be read. The races won't be rewatched. Those of use still alive will be viewed as ancient fans of the internal combustion engine period of F1.

HAM and MSC both have 7 titles but HAM did it in fewer races. Whatever we think now unless someone gets 8 or more HAM will be seen as the GOAT in the generations to come. Nobody remembers car reliability and, much respect to the Merc guys, but when it comes to car dominance many people mention Colin Chapman, and then the FW14B and not a lot else, even though Msc's Ferrari was clearly amazing too.

FWIW - Senna is still my man. I think it is reasonable to say that if he hadn't died he would have won the titles that Hill and Villeneuve got, and also possibly the 1994 title when Hill and Msc crashed too. But for people 25 years younger than me, they won;t give a crap about that. To them Senna got 3 and thus is nothing compared to the 2 guys that did more than double. 

Boromedic

I'm a massive Senna fan, he is just the same as Lewis. He had a way of getting into the best cars, okay he started in a Toleman but he was clearly a winner and top teams were interested long before he appeared in the top tier. He had to wait due to contracts etc. but he ended up in the best car at McLaren and then Williams (unfortunately), he didn't win the title in a Fondmetal did he?

He was no different to all the other champions, he absolutely would have won more titles if he hadn't passed away, (a day which I'll never forget), however he still would've only done so if he was in the quickest car. The only difference really is personality wise he was a bit of an asshole to the teams and managers, a very generous guy away from the sport though, although he came from wealth himself which is completely different to Lewis.

Emiel

Unless we get the best drivers in the same car (what happened with Senna/Prost, and then it was still relatively undecided) we can never tell who is the best driver as opposed to the most succesful. But isn't that part of the charm of F1... the endless discussions about who is best. All we can tell is that the Mercedes has been both the best car ánd team from 2014 onwards. But that doesn't mean anyone can win in that car, you still have to drive it... Hamilton fully deserves it and it's up to other teams and drivers to start challenging them. Although with the current regulations, that is harder than ever. And, how can you win against a team that has much resources and employees than all the other teams (950 in Brackley, 700 in Brixworth)? That really has to change, in order to make this sport more competitive. I'm sceptic whether that will actually change with the new regulations...

goldtop

Cols said:

I think that’s doing the 1500 staff working in the Mercedes F1 and engine teams to design, develop, manufacture and run the cars over the past 7 years a bit of a disservice.

Hang on. For sure, it's a team effort; no-one sensibly suggests that the staff didn't get a winning car together! But there are only a couple of people able to give the engineers the only feedback that matters. We know from history that there are drivers who can provide it and develop a car and those who can't.

As the adage goes: "the most important part of an F1 car is the nut that holds the steering wheel".

Teetonetal

Cols said:

I think that’s doing the 1500 staff working in the Mercedes F1 and engine teams to design, develop, manufacture and run the cars over the past 7 years a bit of a disservice.  Hamilton has been given a marvellous instrument by a fantastic team and has done a great job of using it to its fullest extent.

On the point of having the gift of ensuring he’s in the right car at the right time; it’s not difficult when “the right car” has been the one he’s already in since 2014.  

Before that Red Bull were dominant from 2010-2013, and Brawn owned 2009.  One might argue he arrived in F1 in 2007 driving the best car; this carried on to 2008, after which he spent the next 5 years being fortunate enough to be driving cars which were capable of winning races before the current period of total dominance by Mercedes.

He’s absolutely maximised his opportunities, but it’s important to recognise that he’s the fortunate spearhead of a fantastic team effort.

Maybe but he left just before McLaren became awfull and joined just before mercedes went huge...

At the time of the change he got a lot of flack for it.

He took a gamble / saw something he liked and boy has it paid off.

sammysaber

goldtop said:

Cols said:

I think that’s doing the 1500 staff working in the Mercedes F1 and engine teams to design, develop, manufacture and run the cars over the past 7 years a bit of a disservice.

Hang on. For sure, it's a team effort; no-one sensibly suggests that the staff didn't get a winning car together! But there are only a couple of people able to give the engineers the only feedback that matters. We know from history that there are drivers who can provide it and develop a car and those who can't.

As the adage goes: "the most important part of an F1 car is the nut that holds the steering wheel".

Given that testing was banned years ago, obviously driver feedback is much more limited than the Schumacher days when he was pumping hundreds of laps at Fiorano.

Taking nothing away from Hamilton as he can only compete with the teams/drivers put in front of him, and he is probably the most complete driver on the grid at this time - but could Ricciardo, Max, Charles, or even Vettel have bagged a WDC or two in that car just like Rosberg did ?

The Mercedes juggernaut deserves massive credit - not only in their politics in keeping the status quo with the FIA for so many years, but having the factory produce the class of the field year in year out.

The last time Hamilton had a DNF was over 2 years ago - Red Bull Ring July 2018 - that is astonishing.

Well done to the staff at Mercedes F1.

Best,
Sammy 

chillidoggy

So, will Albon be replaced next year, and if so, who will it be?

I can’t see him hanging on, and I reckon Perez will get the seat.

Cols

chillidoggy said:

So, will Albon be replaced next year, and if so, who will it be?

I can’t see him hanging on, and I reckon Perez will get the seat.

Yes; his days at Red Bull are numbered.

I reckon it’ll be Hulkenberg; he’s a fast driver and, most importantly, a team player.  He’s got the support of the Verstappens as well, which counts for a lot; just ask Sainz.

thumpingrug

It will be a bit odd if the 4th placed driver is left without a seat for next year

sinbaadi

thumpingrug said:

It will be a bit odd if the 4th placed driver is left without a seat for next year

Not really!  The car determines drivers' championship finishing positions much more so than the driver himself, all the teams know that, and when there are so many drivers waiting for their chance, 4th place counts for nothing.  Sponsorship and PR potential is of much greater value at this point.

chillidoggy

Well, Albion didn’t disgrace himself in quali, but I’m still betting on him being out of a job next year.

Red Bull have always surprised, and I’d love to hear an announcement that they’d ditched him for George Russell.

DesVegas

chillidoggy said:

Well, Albion didn’t disgrace himself in quali, but I’m still betting on him being out of a job next year.

Red Bull have always surprised, and I’d love to hear an announcement that they’d ditched him for George Russell.

That would be so cool !!

not_the_dj

What the fuck just happened