The F1 thread

Fretwired

chillidoggy said:

This is going round and round and round and round.......it's like arguing with the wife.

I'm waiting for the shock announcement that Merc have refused to pay him what he wants, and told him to get fucked. They should, but they won't.

IONOS have stepped up (according to the press) - the argument is no longer about money (£40 million is chicken feed to Daimler). I didn't think it was. It's about the role Hamilton wants and what he wants to do outside F1 - it's making Daimler nervous.

fretmeister

chillidoggy said:

This is going round and round and round and round.......it's like arguing with the wife.

I'm waiting for the shock announcement that Merc have refused to pay him what he wants, and told him to get fucked. They should, but they won't.

I'm waiting for the announcement that Merc have refused to pay him what he is worth as the most successful driver of the current era, and possibly ever, and LH has told them to get fucked.


Works both ways.

Cols

dazzajl said:

Again, as someone who’s not pro Hamilton, Schumacher wouldn’t be on my comparison list. Unlike Lewis, who has had subservient drivers because he forged ahead and left his team no choice, Michael had his backup car by contract and that takes away the level playing field. 

This would be an example of the difficulty in comparing drivers, for both Hamilton and Schumacher enjoyed major advantages in different ways.

Since 2014, Hamilton has had the best car on the grid by a considerable margin.  In fact, for the whole of his F1 career he’s had the unusual good fortune to always be driving a car capable of race wins.  With the exception of 2009 his team mate has also won races, so they were genuinely good cars and not just Lewis dragging the car to wins it didn’t deserve.

Schumacher, on the other hand, had the advantage of having contractual number one status from 1994 until the end of his first stint in F1.  Benetton and Ferrari had the sole objective of Michael winning races and championships; the second driver was only there to support that goal.

It’s one of the things which annoys me about Schumacher; his talent was so huge that I don’t believe he needed to have the deck stacked in his favour within the team, he would’ve beaten them anyway.  I think it lessens his (still incredible) achievement that he never had to defeat another really top driver of the era in equal machinery.

sinbaadi

Fretwired said:

sinbaadi said:

I just find it incredible that people can assert with such certainty that Hamilton is the best driver ever, in a series which is predicated on competition between teams and cars above and beyond anything else.

Rosberg beat him, and without Hamilton, maybe with a journeyman as the solid number 2, he would have been champion multiple times no doubt, perhaps clean sweeping the Mercedes dominant era for himself.   Would that make him the best driver ever?   So given Hamilton beat him does that make Rosberg the second best ever?


It's just as absurd to declare that Hamilton is better than someone like Mika Hakkinen and to decry anyone who says "actually it's not as simple as that".

Rosberg was lucky ... Hamilton had a series of technical problems:

And that basically underlines the point, doesn't it?  Rosberg is unlucky that he had Hamilton as a teammate, otherwise we'd be saying best ever, would we?  Hamilton is undoubtedly better than Rosberg, although perhaps not by an immense margin.  Without Hamilton in the other seat Rosberg could have had an incredibly dominant number of seasons as a number one driver at Mercedes.  

How can you possibly make an argument that, for instance, Emerson Fittipaldi wouldn't have done any better, or equally as well?  It's crazymad, there are dozens of brilliant drivers from all eras, some who never got near a top drive, and you can say with confidence that Lewis is the best ever?  Maybe Lewis is just lucky that he didn't have Nigel Mansell, or Senna, or Prost or goodness knows how many others as a teammate.

Fretwired

sinbaadi said:

And that basically underlines the point, doesn't it?  Rosberg is unlucky that he had Hamilton as a teammate, otherwise we'd be saying best ever, would we?  Hamilton is undoubtedly better than Rosberg, although perhaps not by an immense margin.  Without Hamilton in the other seat Rosberg could have had an incredibly dominant number of seasons as a number one driver at Mercedes.  

How can you possibly make an argument that, for instance, Emerson Fittipaldi wouldn't have done any better, or equally as well?  It's crazymad, there are dozens of brilliant drivers from all eras, some who never got near a top drive, and you can say with confidence that Lewis is the best ever?  Maybe Lewis is just lucky that he didn't have Nigel Mansell, or Senna, or Prost or goodness knows how many others as a teammate.

Where have I ever said Hamilton is the best ever? I didn't. I said (above) that he can only be measured against the guys he actually raced. I also said that Hamilton has said he thinks Senna is the best. So even he doesn't think he's the best driver ever.

As @fretmeister says in the end it will only be records that are remembered. People laud Schumacker and turn a blind eye to his cheating (deliberately crashing at Monaco) and aggressive driving (against Hill).

Boromedic

Fretwired made most of the points I would, F1 is car and driver but you need a great driver to maximise the cars potential.

I'll put it simply, Lewis is the greatest of all time, he would beat any driver from the last 45 years or so in the same car all else being equal, more than they would beat him. That goes for Senna, Prost, Lauda, Hakkinen, Schumacher, Piquet etc. I won't include Hunt,  Mansell, or Hill as they are not the level of those other guys. Mansell was a great racer but never developed his car management, Hill was lucky as was Hunt. 

You can argue all you want about cars and things, and the stats, Lewis is just quick, he has been in all formula and all cars. Now he has developed the nous to win when he shouldn't on top of that. Rosberg was extremely fortunate, Lewis had way more failures that year than any previous year, and no he wasn't overdriving against advice so I'm not sure where that nugget came from (source please?), that failure lead to changes to the engine and running spec for all Merc engined teams. Button still gets hyped when he wasn't all that good. Can't be arsed arguing more, Lewis is the GOAT... 

prowla

People laud Schumacker and turn a blind eye to his cheating (deliberately crashing at Monaco) and aggressive driving (against Hill).

...and being the designated number 1 driver with his teammate riding shotgun and contractually obliged to stuff up his own race if it was for the "greater good".

Boromedic

P.s. Lewis is being out of order asking for that much money, but it's a negotiation and you don't start low do you. I certainly wouldn't

Fretwired

Boromedic said:

P.s. Lewis is being out of order asking for that much money, but it's a negotiation and you don't start low do you. I certainly wouldn't

It's basically what he's being paid already, and a chunk of it is performance-related. Wolff has admitted that F1 is worth $4.5 billion to Mercedes. There's more to this than money.

Speaking to Sky Sports, Wolff said,  "after recently reviewing some data you could see the audience we were able to generate, the advertising value for Mercedes and all the partners on the car.

"In 2012 we had an advertising value of, believe it or not, $60 or 70million, and today we are at $4.5billion, and that has unlocked so much potential.

"A Mercedes today is perceived as a sporty car. It wasn't 10 years ago. Of course, the road cars you buy, the AMG cars, they have an edge. We have become a really cool brand."

In assessing the impact of Mercedes' F1 involvement, Wolff added: "I think we have played our part in helping the brand change its image by being in Formula 1, by being successful and triggering some emotion because fundamentally this is what you want to trigger, with all your marketing activities - an emotion, and this is what we do."

dazzajl

Boromedic said:

..........

I'll put it simply, Lewis is the greatest of all time, he would beat any driver from the last 45 years or so in the same car all else being equal, more than they would beat him.............

Prove it.

thumpingrug

sinbaadi said:

I just find it incredible that people can assert with such certainty that Hamilton is the best driver ever, in a series which is predicated on competition between teams and cars above and beyond anything else.

Rosberg beat him, and without Hamilton, maybe with a journeyman as the solid number 2, he would have been champion multiple times no doubt, perhaps clean sweeping the Mercedes dominant era for himself.   Would that make him the best driver ever?   So given Hamilton beat him does that make Rosberg the second best ever?


It's just as absurd to declare that Hamilton is better than someone like Mika Hakkinen and to decry anyone who says "actually it's not as simple as that".

I cant be bothered to argue with you too deeply (others have done so)  as I have a temperature of 39 and feel shit.  Suffice to say - you're wrong.

sammysaber

Boromedic said:

. Button still gets hyped when he wasn't all that good. Can't be arsed arguing more, Lewis is the GOAT... 

Button scored more points than Hamilton in their three years together at McLaren....

sinbaadi

thumpingrug said:

sinbaadi said:

I just find it incredible that people can assert with such certainty that Hamilton is the best driver ever, in a series which is predicated on competition between teams and cars above and beyond anything else.

Rosberg beat him, and without Hamilton, maybe with a journeyman as the solid number 2, he would have been champion multiple times no doubt, perhaps clean sweeping the Mercedes dominant era for himself.   Would that make him the best driver ever?   So given Hamilton beat him does that make Rosberg the second best ever?


It's just as absurd to declare that Hamilton is better than someone like Mika Hakkinen and to decry anyone who says "actually it's not as simple as that".

I cant be bothered to argue with you too deeply (others have done so)  as I have a temperature of 39 and feel shit.  Suffice to say - you're wrong.

Nope.  But then I'm not the one making the assertions really so there's nothing for me to even be wrong about! 

Boromedic

dazzajl said:

Boromedic said:

..........

I'll put it simply, Lewis is the greatest of all time, he would beat any driver from the last 45 years or so in the same car all else being equal, more than they would beat him.............

Prove it.

Prove he wouldn't.... 

Boromedic

sammysaber said:

Boromedic said:

. Button still gets hyped when he wasn't all that good. Can't be arsed arguing more, Lewis is the GOAT... 

Button scored more points than Hamilton in their three years together at McLaren....

Yawn, if you're a simpleton yes, and only look at the figures over 3 years. Do you need it explaining to you perhaps? 

Lewis outscored Button in 2 seasons out of the 3 he raced with him, so he was beaten in only one season. There's also this:

"Interestingly however, in the races they both made the chequered flag (37) Hamilton finished in front 65% of the time with his advantage on Saturdays, unsurprisingly given the pair’s well-established relative strengths, even more pronounced.

Discounting grid penalties, Hamilton ended qualifying with the better lap time on 44 occasions compared with Button’s 14, giving the 2008 champion a 76% success rate."

That gives you a better idea of who was the more dominant in that time, it's not as straightforward Button scored more points over 3 seasons. Which is just quoting rubbish without reading the facts, Button was overrated and had plenty of time to prove himself before Lewis showed up and yet didn't do so. He won the title for exactly the same reasons everyone rags on Lewis now, because he was in the most dominant car by quite a way.

Jenson didn't have Lewis's consistency, quali skills or race craft.

sammysaber

Boromedic said:

dazzajl said:

Boromedic said:

..........

I'll put it simply, Lewis is the greatest of all time, he would beat any driver from the last 45 years or so in the same car all else being equal, more than they would beat him.............

Prove it.

Prove he wouldn't.... 

Well there's no doubt that Hamilton is a great driver who quite rightly believes that the 25,000 employees Mercedes had to let go for 2020 will have no issues when a spoilt brat demands more money for a job (and 10 percent of  total Mercedes  winnings) that can be done by someone 1/50th of the price.

Russell asking for an autograph : 



Few years later : 



And when we discuss Schumacher's team mates (Lewis was outscored by Button and lost a title to Rosberg), let's not forget  :

Bottas 2017 - 3rd - 58 points behind Hamilton.

Bottas  2018 - 5th - 161 points behind Hamilton.

Bottas  2019 - 2nd - 87 points behind Hamilton.
 
Bottas  2020 - 2nd - 124 points behind Hamilton.

Credit to Hamilton for keeping a straight face when he says how hard Bottas pushes him.

prowla

There is some real negativity towards Hamilton on this thread...

Boromedic

Yeah there is, I love the British attitude of hating winners it's great...

chillidoggy

FFS, this is getting like a load of old women arguing and achieves the sum total of fuck-all. Can we move on now?

Fretwired

Jenson Button on Hamilton on Planet F1:

“It’s car, it’s driver, it’s strategist, it’s making sure every mechanic is doing their job correctly, it’s pit stops, it’s a full team effort and that’s why I love Formula 1.

“But when you try and compare every driver and try and say is it more the car or driver, they are all pointless things because you can never answer that.

“But Lewis is definitely one of the best drivers that has ever driven in Formula 1.”

Read the full thing here:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/jenson-button-exclusive/